Xavi Hernández

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Sumlit

San Claudio Bravo
Messi was more static this year specifically because Tata wanted him to play as a 9, instead of the false nine role. Alves's crosses might have paid off a bit more had they been low crosses closer to the ground rather than the aerial missiles that Alves kept firing off only to lose possession.

Messi was less involved in the buildup because he was made to play purely as a 9 more than ever before. The focus of the play was taken away from the middle and onto the wings. Cannot blame Messi when the play is moved away from his area and onto others, of course he's going to be less involved.
 

footyfan

Calma, calma
Messi was less involved in the buildup because he was made to play purely as a 9 more than ever before. The focus of the play was taken away from the middle and onto the wings. Cannot blame Messi when the play is moved away from his area and onto others, of course he's going to be less involved.

2012/13 had the same problems (that Celtic pic by BerkeleyBernie is from that season) and Messi was definitely false 9. Guy has had poor movement since the end of Pep's last season.
 

Sumlit

San Claudio Bravo
2012/13 had the same problems (that Celtic pic by BerkeleyBernie is from that season) and Messi was definitely false 9. Guy has had poor movement since the end of Pep's last season.

Find that hard to believe when Pep's last season and Tito's season saw a Messi with his two best statistical seasons. This supposed poor movement you claim did not impact his production those years. The team overall has dropped in fluidity and involvement, and it isn't because of Messi but because of the decline of players due to age and the deterioration of the system.

Could Messi move around more, certainly, but see how the team played this season I would say that would have hardly changed things. There was simply a severe drop of combined play through the middle this season on top of the fact that there was zero space to move on. Extra movement in the middle the way this team was playing would have been wasted movement.


Video proof. Messi is moving and looking to receive balls, but play is only coming through the wings and ball has no shot in reaching him. All that movement he is doing is essentially wasting energy with almost no chance of production.
 
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Maria

New member
There were also some games last season when Messi was injured..I wonder what stopped Xavi from playing like his old self then.
 

footyfan

Calma, calma
There were also some games last season when Messi was injured..I wonder what stopped Xavi from playing like his old self then.

Because Messi was replaced by Fabregas, a world class striker....

I agree that Xavi has declined a fair bit, but I think he would show a lot more if he went to a team with an actual forward.

Find that hard to believe when Pep's last season and Tito's season saw a Messi with his two best statistical seasons. This supposed poor movement you claim did not impact his production those years. The team overall has dropped in fluidity and involvement, and it isn't because of Messi but because of the decline of players do to age and the deterioration of the system.

Messi's production is essentially irrelevant as we're discussing the effect on Xavi's game. Messi's poor movement is a contributor to the drop in Xavi's performances, not the only cause.
 
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Sumlit

San Claudio Bravo
Messi's production is essentially irrelevant as we're discussing the effect on Xavi's game. Messi's poor movement is a contributor to the drop in Xavi's performances, not the only cause.

Not when the player himself has shown an appreciable physical decline that is completely independent of outside influence. The player himself can no longer play at the same level as he one did, regardless of who he has around him.

If you say Messi's supposed poor movement had a significant contribution in Xavi's performance, enough impact to discuss at least, then one can also equally say that Xavi's drop in performance is a contributor in Messi's poor movement, if not the only cause.
 

footyfan

Calma, calma
Not when the player himself has shown an appreciable physical decline that is completely independent of outside influence. The player himself can no longer play at the same level as he one did, regardless of who he has around him.

If you say Messi's supposed poor movement had a significant contribution in Xavi's performance, enough impact to discuss at least, then one can also equally say that Xavi's drop in performance is a contributor in Messi's poor movement, if not the only cause.

Not sure how it would contribute to Messi's poor movement, but Xavi's drop in performance surely contributes to Messi's drop in performance.
 

Ode to Django

You're not even a real journalism
Xavi's job in Barcelona these days is pretty much just circulate the ball, Messi is the main finisher, playmaker & everything has to flow through him the past few years, it's no wonder he looks good & the rest don't so much, from Xavi, Pedro, Cesc all the way to Alexis Sanchez, hasn't been balanced ever since the team was built around Messi.

Interestingly & annoyingly enough, the one time you decided to switch it up & use David Villa as a #9 against my team, the difference was night and day.

I can't stand teams built around static forwards, always hated it.
 

BerkeleyBernie

Senior Member
Interestingly & annoyingly enough, the one time you decided to switch it up & use David Villa as a #9 against my team, the difference was night and day.

Yup. Also, several other games during that period (if I recall, the 2nd half vs Sevilla). I think most of the Forum was baffled as to why Barça didn't keep developing that strategy, as it pinned the centerbacks and gave Messi more room to be what he is- an attacking midfielder. I hope Lucho will develop tactics along those lines.

I can't stand teams built around static forwards, always hated it.


Yup. It's almost entirely destroyed Barça's tiki-taka through the middle. I love Messi, but building tactics around him as a static CF (or false 9 with no one in front of him) makes it impossible to create with triangles through the middle. Which is why I enjoy Spain more, at present: it's Barça with a stronger defense, more fluid forwards, and no Alves crosses.
 

Sumlit

San Claudio Bravo
The things you see here. Not only the insinuation that Messi is a static forward, which is crazy enough as it is, but also that Messi playing the false 9 "almost entirely destroyed Barca's tiki-taka through the middle."

It befuddles the mind....
 
F

Flavia

Guest
Messi is the main finisher, playmaker & everything has to flow through him the past few years

Except last season under Tata. He used Messi as a pure #9, less involved in the build up, and it really made the team worse.


The things you see here. Not only the insinuation that Messi is a static forward, which is crazy enough as it is, but also that Messi playing the false 9 "almost entirely destroyed Barca's tiki-taka through the middle."

It befuddles the mind....

Indeed, it does.
 

DonAndres

Wild Man of Borneo
Yup. It's almost entirely destroyed Barça's tiki-taka through the middle. I love Messi, but building tactics around him as a static CF (or false 9 with no one in front of him) makes it impossible to create with triangles through the middle. Which is why I enjoy Spain more, at present: it's Barça with a stronger defense, more fluid forwards, and no Alves crosses.

I know Messi hasn't been too mobile in recent times but that's hardly the source of why our system can't be played (I believe it's more of an effect). As much as I liked him as a person, that was really down to Tata being incapable of instilling tactical discipline into the side.

All of our players were given free reign to do as they pleased which resulted in scattered positioning, sluggish tempo, and individuals pretty much choosing their own instruction (Messi walking, Alves crossing, etc.). You couldn't find a proper link between multiple players, 2-3 at a time were walking while others made out of place runs. No cohesion, no play as a unit, and a majority of our buildup came down the wing resulting in an Alves cross. Usually we committed maybe 3 players in the middle of the 7 defender body inside the box waiting to receive the cross as well while only guys like Iniesta/Xavi/Alves stay on the outside unsuccessfully trying to find a way through before crossing it. It's ridiculously un-Barca like. We looked closer to current United than Prime Barca many times given the way we played.

A proper Barcelona side is much more disciplined. The positioning and distance of the players is purposeful and coordinated to create those links and triangles that allow us to play through the middle with the technical wizards. Then it frees up the wings for the likes of Neymar/Alexis to make a piercing diagonal run that can result in an attacking move.


Look at how balanced the positioning is and how proper the team shape looks, namely because everyone's movement is with complete regard and awareness to where the ball is and how to provide a connection between multiple players. The triangles we created with that kind of movement gave us a clear path at goal and true domination rather than passive possession. Our team now doesn't have 1/2 of this amount of movement and it's completely scattered. Prime Barca was organized and diligent, a far cry from what we've become now.

Our players might have talent but they desperately need a coach that clearly is in charge of what they do. Guys like Messi and Alves showed their worst sides when not under proper instruction. The way we've fallen as a team has manifested itself on Xavi too (who CAN do a lot better with less over-playing and a better team around him). For me, Messi not moving as much isn't the true problem for Xavi's decline because the true issue reflects on a much bigger picture which is the result of our decline as a collective.

In short: Messi could be running like a dog but it still wouldn't improve Xavi's game much unless the entire system is fixed.
 
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