Yugoslavia

[Yugo Count Dante]

Some would even claim that Yugoslavia was established by communist colonialists. You know just like in the former USSR republics where people were fooled to believe that the Soviets were liberators.

I don't want this to become a political debate, but I'd like to mention some things since you used the words 'fooled to believe'.

First of all, I am not claiming that Tito's rule was just and heaven for it's people (although a lot of people felt this way), but for you to claim that people of Yugoslavia were fooled, and then go and compare it to the 'former USSR republics' who saw the Soviets as their 'liberators' is just not correct. If you examine the Yugoslav system you will notice that it was exceptional, one could even call it revolutionary in the way that it made a system function pretty well, that usually is deemed to fail. On top of that, it had a decent coexistence (something democracy failed to bring) and it probably had one of the best 'multi-cultural' societies in Europe, something that is hard to establish even today. Tito's rule had an perfect balance between the 'west' and the 'communist countries', sparing the Yugoslav people from being xenophobic and being in fear of something that was used to control the people.

The thing you seem to think that the people in the west are not 'fooled', in fact, one could claim that the people behind the whole world communism movement, were the same people who set the standards for the capitalistic west. But this of course is not taught in most compulsory governmental schooling, and is hard to find daylight in a world full of deception.

There are even people who claim that Tito himself was not Yugoslav, some claim he was from an Elite family from Poland/Switzerland and that he was granted to rule over the Balkans to bring 'peace' to the region.

 

[DucdeOrléans]

What is your point? as far as I know you have not made this statement in the Catalan NT thread?

If Spain were to fall apart and be divided in 2, 3 or 4 countries, I'm sure there would be a thread about the 'Old Spain hypothetical NT', no?

I was about to ask you the same question. What is your own point?

You don't see me writing anywhere that making a hypothetical Yugoslavia team is a bad thing do you?

Spain is not divided so it would be pointless to make such a thread.

Did you somehow feel offended that I mentioned other hypothetical teams that could be made as well? If so that's a bit strange.

I don't want this to become a political debate, but I'd like to mention some things since you used the words 'fooled to believe'.

First of all, I am not claiming that Tito's rule was just and heaven for it's people (although a lot of people felt this way), but for you to claim that people of Yugoslavia were fooled, and then go and compare it to the 'former USSR republics' who saw the Soviets as their 'liberators' is just not correct. If you examine the Yugoslav system you will notice that it was exceptional, one could even call it revolutionary in the way that it made a system function pretty well, that usually is deemed to fail. On top of that, it had a decent coexistence (something democracy failed to bring) and it probably had one of the best 'multi-cultural' societies in Europe, something that is hard to establish even today. Tito's rule had an perfect balance between the 'west' and the 'communist countries', sparing the Yugoslav people from being xenophobic and being in fear of something that was used to control the people.

The thing you seem to think that the people in the west are not 'fooled', in fact, one could claim that the people behind the whole world communism movement, were the same people who set the standards for the capitalistic west. But this of course is not taught in most compulsory governmental schooling, and is hard to find daylight in a world full of deception.

There are even people who claim that Tito himself was not Yugoslav, some claim he was from an Elite family from Poland/Switzerland and that he was granted to rule over the Balkans to bring 'peace' to the region.

I think I wrote "some would even claim" (that's at least what your quote is showing) which is true whether you agree or not. I have heard this from several people from the former territories of Yugoslavia. I have not given my own opinion on Yugoslavia because it does not belong here nor do I have any particular interest in the subject.

But I will nevertheless give you a hint. I don't like totalitarian communist/socialist states or states that apply totalitarianism.

Well a lot of people in Russia and the former USSR republics/communist satellite states also have a lot positive to say about it (as absurd as it sounds in my eyes) knowing the history and society of the USSR. Mostly oldies but still...

I am sure that some miss Yugoslavia as well for nostalgic, political, economic etc. reasons. They are allowed to do that but so should those who don't like the political system Yugoslavia was formed upon.

Also, although I obviously only can guess (unless there is data available on this subject) then I am pretty sure that the regular Bosniak, Croat, Serb or Slovenian etc. is happy that they now are sovereign countries. I know I would if I was one of them.

 

[Yugo Count Dante]

People can be proud as much as they like, doesn't change that most people struggle in their daily life to survive while their kids have nothing to eat. While the government is too busy being a slave to the foreign banks and selling their property to foreigners who only care about exploiting the resources and the beautiful nature, focusing only on profit making. Believe me, there is little left to be proud of, it's a farce to believe that these people are proud of the conditions they live in. As we learn from history, economic lows make people prone to supporting nationalistic, fascist ideas.

 

[UberNjufer]

True that,but there wouldnt be any difference between yugoslavia and what we have today,economy wise ofcourse

 

[DucdeOrléans]

Don't know what you are talking about now to be honest. I hear the same from certain people from the former satelite states of USSR and Russians themselves despite the fact that their countries and people are becoming richer, more democratic and independent. Most of those are people who supported the former regimes for whatever reasons...

I find it hard to believe that everything was perfect in Yugoslavia and that people had no national agendas or were not in a bad financial situation. Last time I checked most former totalitarian communist/socialist states were economic failures compared to the rest of the developed and democratic world.

Actually it was nationalism and the will of the people that ruined Yugoslavia which was a doomed state from the beginning like most totalitarian communist states. You saw the same happening in USSR when the strong father figure was nowhere to be found. Not a coincidence.

But well this thread is not about politics so I don't know why you started this debate.

 

[Yugo Count Dante]

Don't know what you are talking about now to be honest. I hear the same from certain people from the former satelite states of USSR and Russians themselves despite the fact that their countries and people are becoming richer, more democratic and independent. Most of those are people who supported the former regimes for whatever reasons...

I find it hard to believe that everything was perfect in Yugoslavia and that people had no national agendas or were not in a bad financial situation. Last time I checked most former totalitarian communist/socialist states were economic failures compared to the rest of the developed and democratic world.

Actually it was nationalism and the will of the people that ruined Yugoslavia which was a doomed state from the beginning like most totalitarian communist states. You saw the same happening in USSR when the strong father figure was nowhere to be found. Not a coincidence.

But well this thread is not about politics so I don't know why you started this debate.

Yugoslavia was perfectly healthy economicly, probably one of the reasons they had to divide them was because this way it is easier to milk them with foreign banks (i.e modern day slaves).

The difference is that you believe a totalitarian state is 'bad' by definition, while I do not deem something as a failure beforehand.

Here is an (alternative) talk by Michael Parenti on "The U.S. War on Yugoslavia" given May 16, 1999 in Seattle, WA.

 

[Yugo Count Dante]

True that,but there wouldnt be any difference between yugoslavia and what we have today,economy wise ofcourse

I agree, but if the Yugoslav economy would continue their rhythm, there would be a complete difference.

If you would count up all the debt of, respectively, Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia, Montenegro, Macedonia ... one is left with one question: Where did it go wrong????

 

[UberNjufer]

I agree, but if the Yugoslav economy would continue their rhythm, there would be a complete difference.

If you would count up all the debt of, respectively, Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia, Montenegro, Macedonia ... one is left with one question: Where did it go wrong????



Also good piece by Prof. Dr. Michel Chossudovsky

banks own almost every single government in the world,yugoslavia would be no different.If civil war didnt happen,maybe we would suffer same fate as Lybia,it would go down one way or another.It's pointless to talk about state of economy back then,banks would enslave us sooner or later not to mention that the country was insanely centralized much like croatia today where all the money goes to Zagreb and all the other parts are left behind,civil unrest would be just a matter of time and look at our politicians today every single one of them is corrupt in every ex yu. country,you think they would behave differently in yugoslavia ofcourse not.They would be bribed in same way they are today.Najebali smo i ovako i onako,dok su banke tu nema izlaza

 

[La Furia]

Yugoslavia was perfectly healthy economicly, probably one of the reasons they had to divide them was because this way it is easier to milk them with foreign banks (i.e modern day slaves).

The difference is that you believe a totalitarian state is 'bad' by definition, while I do not deem something as a failure beforehand.

Here is an (alternative) talk by Michael Parenti on "The U.S. War on Yugoslavia" given May 16, 1999 in Seattle, WA.

I find it interesting how many people I've met from the Balkans (both within and among the diaspora) who wish Yugoslavia stayed together. A very different picture than what they paint in the US media, that's for sure.

It's a pity that petty ethnic tensions (and political play by companies and countries like the US, Germany and Russia who encouraged different sides for their own benefit) had to ruin everything.

Don't know what you are talking about now to be honest. I hear the same from certain people from the former satelite states of USSR and Russians themselves despite the fact that their countries and people are becoming richer, more democratic and independent. Most of those are people who supported the former regimes for whatever reasons...

I find it hard to believe that everything was perfect in Yugoslavia and that people had no national agendas or were not in a bad financial situation. Last time I checked most former totalitarian communist/socialist states were economic failures compared to the rest of the developed and democratic world.

Actually it was nationalism and the will of the people that ruined Yugoslavia which was a doomed state from the beginning like most totalitarian communist states. You saw the same happening in USSR when the strong father figure was nowhere to be found. Not a coincidence.

But well this thread is not about politics so I don't know why you started this debate.

You are oversimplifying everything with your typical "Communism is bad" blanket statement. Like everything else, Yugoslavia was a complicated place - Tito was a dictator and there was certainly repression, but a lot of that repression was directed toward ethnic nationalists - the type of people who were committing ethnic cleansing during World War 2, and then again in the 90s. I'm sure not everyone who was silenced was "asking for it", but a lot off them were. And Tito was no Stalin or Brezhnev - compare the results of Prague Spring and the Croatian Spring for instance.

Yugoslavia was not the Soviet Union, not even close. Yes in both instances you have people nostalgic for a more egalitarian past compared to the inequality and political conflicts of the present, but most of that talk in the Soviet Union is in Russia and the countries that have become basket cases since dissolution. You aren't going to meet too many Czechs for instance who miss the Soviets. On the other hand even the post-Yugoslav success stories Slovenia and Croatia have experienced waves of Yugonostalgia.

And the Yugoslav economy wasn't a giant, but it still isn't. It also had as much in common with the "free" world as it did the Soviet Union - by the 60's, it was essentially a mixed economy. There was an element of state control but it was very different.

 

[AnfieldEd]

Would love to have seen that team in Euro 92 against the Germans and the Dutch. Still their replacements did pretty well!

 

[DucdeOrléans]

La Furia:

Political communism combined with totalitarianism is bad no matter what you say. Political communism killed more (directly or indirectly) people than any other ideology in human history (if we look past the religions)

I never compared the political system of Yugoslavia with USSR's, I just said that they both relied on the same father figure who could unit all the different ethnic groups. When he died the society broke down and all the problems that always were present under the surface reappeared again.

The societies/ideologies were obviously not identical to stalinism and post-stalinism (that was the case in all "independent" USSR satellite states) but the core of the system was still very similar.

YugoCulé:

Before Yugoslavia all those different people were never united why do you think that they would haved lived peacefully forever in a totalitarian communist state?

There is a reason why it collapsed. In the end it did not function. Much like USSR.

Once the father figure was gone (Tito) all the problems that always existed under the surface reappeared again in full view and the result was the civil war.

I mean I can see from your posts here that you would like to live under a communist regime again which I find strange. You also seem to have a hatred for the West. May I ask if you are a Serb?

All people from the former territories I have spoken with/known have all said the same again and again.

Namely that Yugoslavia was doomed to collapse for obvious reasons. Those who want it back (from my experience) are people who share the same political views and somehow complain about the new democratic and independent states despite them developing rather well.

The whole idea of a divided Europe (let us not forget that communist are mostly to blame for the financial situation in the former Eastern Bloc due to their foolish policy) I find very disturbing and unhealthy as it also was proven in reality.

The Yugoslavia you admire was part of that political bloc who did everything to surpress its people and were opponents of democracy, freedom of speech etc.

That's enough for me to oppose it.

I mean before Yugoslavia came to existence there was something called the Greater Serbian Kingdom. You have probably heard about it. Although not communist it ended as a failure as well. That should have been a warning.

 

[Yugo Count Dante]

"Cultural slavery is far more harmful than mere political domination. Yet in practice, they are inseparable."

 

[DucdeOrléans]

"Cultural slavery is far more harmful than mere political domination. Yet in practice, they are inseparable."

What cultural slavery are you taling about? I don't know if you are aware of this but Western Europe is dominated by all kinds of political parties/ideologies. That's the point of democracy, freedom of speech etc.

Care to answer my post instead? I am seriously curious to hear why you think that a totalitarian communist regime was such as wonderful idead and why it is so bad right now in x country you are from live in (obviously you want tell where you are from)

I mean personally I don't agree with USA's policy nor do I care much about it (France is an independent country who don't need to follow USA like other smaller European countries) nor do I agree with NATO's involvement against Serbia if that's the reason for your hatred towards the West.

The whole West vs East divide is a stupid thing. Europe should be united not divided. The political/financial etc. differences Europe experienced right after WW2 can be blamed on the communists (USSR mostly) for isolating half of Europe and the implementation of their stupid policy.

I mean those idiots/muderers renounced the Marshall help (the reason why Germany is the main financial power in Europe to this day (not only obviously since Germany always was rich and had a big industry) and thus prevented the most war thorn part of Europe to be rebuilt in the same manner as their western neighbours. Disgrace really. Let us not be naive we all saw how it was.

To this day people in those regions suffer from this. I find that shameful.

 

[Yugo Count Dante]

It seems to me that you did not watch the video I posted, I highly recommend you to do so!


'You also seem to have a hatred for the West.' No!, I hold no hatred for countries, or it's people. I believe in tolerance and understanding, without ignoring injustice.

'May I ask if you are a Serb?' It is of no relevance what so ever, but since it is to you, no, I am not a Serb.




You talk about communism? why not look closer, if you actually read the 10 planks of the communist manifesto, one could even claim that America has implanted those planks (http://www.libertyzone.com/Communist-Manifesto-Planks.html)

I would encourage you to study the true root of communism and where most fore father of communism come from, what their origins are and (most importantly) who they associate with, or better said, to which groups they belonged or were members of. Also take a close look at the biographies (where they studies, by whom they were inspired ect) of communist leaders ect...




for the record, I am not a communist nor do believe it is a good system (general speaking, I know there different directions of communism) what so ever.

 

[ath0s]

Political communism killed more (directly or indirectly) people than any other ideology in human history (if we look past the religions)

le livre noir du capitalisme