Yugoslavia

[La Furia]

La Furia:

Political communism combined with totalitarianism is bad no matter what you say. Political communism killed more (directly or indirectly) people than any other ideology in human history (if we look past the religions)

I never compared the political system of Yugoslavia with USSR's, I just said that they both relied on the same father figure who could unit all the different ethnic groups. When he died the society broke down and all the problems that always were present under the surface reappeared again.

The societies/ideologies were obviously not identical to stalinism and post-stalinism (that was the case in all "independent" USSR satellite states) but the core of the system was still very similar.

"Political communism" is a pretty empty label, much like "capitalism" or democracy" it's hard to paint everyone with the same brush. For instance I know people who for whatever reason genuinely believe the likes of Stalin and Hoxha are heroes and think the Sendero Luminoso are freedom fighters, and even they think Pol Pot was a psychopath. If you look at African dictators, the "communists" and "anti-communists" typically have similar body counts. In South America far more people have been killed in the name of anti-communism than communism.

What I will agree with is that Tito, by establishing a system around himself and his personality, did create a situation where control would break down with his death. If anything though things were being liberalized before he died, though he kept the "father figure" image going until after he died.

 

[DucdeOrléans]

It seems to me that you did not watch the video I posted, I highly recommend you to do so!


'You also seem to have a hatred for the West.' No!, I hold no hatred for countries, or it's people. I believe in tolerance and understanding, without ignoring injustice.

'May I ask if you are a Serb?' It is of no relevance what so ever, but since it is to you, no, I am not a Serb.




You talk about communism? why not look closer, if you actually read the 10 planks of the communist manifesto, one could even claim that America has implanted those planks

I would encourage you to study the true root of communism and where most fore father of communism come from, what their origins are and (most importantly) who they associate with, or better said, to which groups they belonged or were members of. Also take a close look at the biographies (where they studies, by whom they were inspired ect) of communist leaders ect...

I know the history of communism. Thank you very much. In fact I have family from former communist countries and know how much they suffered because they did not share the communism ideology/were opposed to it and happened to be landowners/nobility from the hands of the "great communists you praise". A lot of similar people were brutally killed or deported to Siberia for labour work.

You need to dinstinguish two things. Actual theoritical communism and the communism that was actually implemented in the Eastern Bloc and mixed with other totalitarian ideologies (Stalinism etc.)

I mean you complain about the economy in the former territories of Yugoslavia while the reality is that the region is richer than ever before. Slovenia is a full member of EU and Croatia will join next year. Whether you like the idea of EU or not it's a healthy step financially wise. And other countries are next (Serbia, Montenegro etc.)

Who is to blame for this? The same communists you praise who prevented half of Europe (the Eastern Bloc) to receive the Marshall help that ensured that Western Europe was rebuilt in a few years despite the Eastern Bloc being the most war-torn part of Europe.

The sole idea of you having no problem living under a totalitarian regime (whether communist or right-wing) I find very disturbing and hard to understand given the history of Europe and how the totalitarian states ended (including the Yugoslavia you desperately want back for some reason who have not explained yet)

Totalitarianism is long gone in Europe (apart from Belarus and Russia to an extent) (thankfully) and hopefully in the rest of the world soon as well. It does not function in any form nor is it something we as humans should aspire to become.

Europe should be united not divided.

 

[Yugo Count Dante]

 

[ath0s]

Europe should be united not divided.

i agree, but, the current eu is increasingly disregarding its people for economic growth, while undermining the participatory democracy!!

i'm an internationalist, actually, but the current eu is a joke.

 

[Yugo Count Dante]

There should be an Balkan Football League, like they have in the Basketball

The Balkan International Basketball League (BIBL), also known as the Balkan League, is a multinational professional basketball league that features pro clubs from the Balkans. The league includes teams from the countries of Bulgaria, Macedonia, Montenegro, Romania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia and Serbia.

Would do so much good for the football and also boost the chances of champions league since the league will be way more comparative.

 

[AURELIUS]

I know you are joking but I was merely referring to states that no longer existed. I mean last time I checked Yugoslavia did not exist anymore.

The Daltis part was something I wrote for fun in the heat of the game. Not even sure the mods would allow me to change the name should Milan loss the Scudetto to Juve (God forbid that). And even if they will I will bribe my way out of it. The Italian way.

Apart from that I guess some minorities would say that the Serbs were behaving like colonial masters when they dominated Yugoslavia. Some would even claim that Yugoslavia was established by communist colonialists. You know just like in the former USSR republics where people were fooled to believe that the Soviets were liberators.

They have a reputation for bottling it on the big occasions and also they are pretty bad when they face difficulties. But on their day they could probably beat anyone.

I still remember that Serb playing for Sacramento a few years ago. Great player. And yes, Yugsolavia have been rather successful in basketball. Pretty impressing. Still to this day they have a lot of talents.

Do you actually know how much oppression the Serbs have faced over the last six centuries ? And ethnic cleansing they have suffered ? Or the war crimes committed by the SS Bosnian Handschar and Croat Ustase ? The former managed to virtually eliminate the Jewish population in the area. The latter murdered tens of thousands hand in hand with their Nazi friends.

 

[Guardian]

There should be an Balkan Football League, like they have in the Basketball

The Balkan International Basketball League (BIBL), also known as the Balkan League, is a multinational professional basketball league that features pro clubs from the Balkans. The league includes teams from the countries of Bulgaria, Macedonia, Montenegro, Romania, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia and Serbia.


Would do so much good for the football and also boost the chances of champions league since the league will be way more comparative.

There was a meeting between some of biggest Eastern European clubs few months ago. I think Crvena zvezda or Partizan suggested to establish an east European league and organised that meeting. I don't remember what was the final decision on this matter

 

[IbraFTW]

Do you actually know how much oppression the Serbs have faced over the last six centuries ? And ethnic cleansing they have suffered ? Or the war crimes committed by the SS Bosnian Handschar and Croat Ustase ? The former managed to virtually eliminate the Jewish population in the area. The latter murdered tens of thousands hand in hand with their Nazi friends.

"...virtually eliminate Jewish population..."

 

[La Furia]

"...virtually eliminate Jewish population..."

I don't know much about the Bosnian Nazi involvement (though I know it was substantial), but the Croatians collaborators were vicious even by World War II standards and the Pavelić regime in Croatia and Bosnia virtually liquidated the Jewish and Romani population. I don't know what's so 'hilarious' about the murder of 330000 Serbs, 30000 Jews (leaving about 1000 survivors) and 30000 Roma.

Just hilarious, right?

Say what you want about Tito, but Tito's partisans were the only group during the war to unite different ethnicities.

 

[La Furia]

Alright, thanks for the clarification, it sounded like you were trying to deny it happened.

Yeah, I'm not sure where he got that Bosniaks carried out much atrocities, I know there was collaborators but the primary activity was carried out by the Croats, with the Chetniks killing every non-right wing Serb in their way. If anything the Muslims in Sarajevo put the most effort in hiding Jews.

 

[Wambo]

Sarajevo

my beautiful city

 

[Yugo Count Dante]

my beautiful city

Vukojebina

 

[Yugo Count Dante]

 

[Antimilan]

It's funny how today's Serbia attributed all the trophies and other merits of Yugoslavia to themselves. There were hardly 2-3 serbian footballers in Yugoslavia's national team. And hardly anyone that stood out amongst all those talents from: Croatia, Bosnia etc.

It would be like today's Northern Ireland team attributing the merits of Great Britain in the olympics.

 

[alex88bg]

Well there is a little bit of truth in that statement ,but you forget that there was a high percentage of serbs living in montenegro,bosnia and less in croatia so its deffinatelly not like northern ireland(and i find that incredibly insulting considering the serbian population before the wars)because most of these players had mixed origins.I dont really get that obsession that serbia claimed tittles because there arent many people here that are obsessed with yugo football,hell even i dont know what we accomplished in it,we were far more obsessed about basketball.But truth be told for me Croats were always a little better in football and serbia in basektball.
I dont get those pointless nationalist accusations without any proof if you look at the list of players in the history of yugoslavia you will find a lot of good ones from Serbia and Croatia,i wouldnt mix Bosnia with this because their multi ethnical composition makes it really hard to differ who is from where etc..