Yusuf Demir

[Messi983]

If only we had a player like Trincao ...

Koeman also wouldn't know how to use him properly...

 

[BBZ8800]

I feel this is a windmill, as many of your points. A windmill and a strawman.
I don't think that many put that much hope on neither Halilovic or Marlon, I surely did not. But if people really did, then well... Halilovic can't be said to having been given the chance prematurely, though.

You were not here.
Here you go, I have a time machine, let's go back to a summer of 2014.
It's always the same, a never-ending loop of overhyping every young player whom we have and then 2 years of arguing and insulting those who mention his flaws until people finally accept that a player is a flop.
And then they just move to then next kid who is always "better than the last one and doesn't possess his flaws" (but he possesses some other deadly flaws, of course).

Enjoy the show:
https://www.barcaforum.com/showthread.php/9950-Alen-Halilovi%C4%87/page36

 

[ajnotkeith]

It would help if we didn't keep thrusting kids that weren't ready into the first-team? Then this dumb Twitter cule Hype machine wouldn't keep churning out failures. The pressure on these kids can't be underestimated too, you have people calling Demir the next Messi in the thousands and people calling Nico the next Busi in the thousands and every player does read what is written about them & things like that can and do go to players heads, many a talent has failed this way.

Youth unless in exceptional circumstances e.g Ansu should prove themselves at Barca B & maybe a loan so when they do come into the first-team they are as prepared as they can be and have been at Barca for some years to understand the system, learn Spanish etc.

 

[mc_lovin]

It would also help if we gave players, especially young ones, more than a few weeks.

 

[JamDav1982]

Ansu, Pedri and Gavi have thrived when thrown in early and not gone through B team.

Nico on the other hand has.

For Demir/Nico who no one really has been making serious comparisons to Messi/Busi either.

For me too many young players stagnate in B team and get used to one way of playing where fairly protected. They should be put into first team sooner when show good enough for chances and if not that go out on loan.

Too many nice, over coached young players spending too much time in B team and need to be out in real world much sooner.

Players being put in early has been a huge success more so than a failure so far in last year or so.

 

[Bobo32]

You were not here.
Here you go, I have a time machine, let's go back to a summer of 2014.
It's always the same, a never-ending loop of overhyping every young player whom we have and then 2 years of arguing and insulting those who mention his flaws until people finally accept that a player is a flop.
And then they just move to then next kid who is always "better than the last one and doesn't possess his flaws" (but he possesses some other deadly flaws, of course).

Enjoy the show:
https://www.barcaforum.com/showthread.php/9950-Alen-Halilovi%C4%87/page36

Ok, I just skimmed that for a bit, and see that you were sceptical of him then, and maybe you feel you deserve credit for it? Well I guess you do, you saw he wasn't that great back then and that was well done.
I didn't see that much hype in the comments though, but I guess any young player with a few highlights or a good game inevitabely gets a bit hyped by a lot of people yeah...

It would also help if we gave players, especially young ones, more than a few weeks.

One of the problems is Koeman pretty much only has two levels: full trust or no trust. Demir was used too much prematurely, and he was probably not given the right chance with the right instructions, players around him, etc.

 

[ajnotkeith]

Ansu, Pedri and Gavi have thrived when thrown in early and not gone through B team.

Nico on the other hand has.

For Demir/Nico who no one really has been making serious comparisons to Messi/Busi either.

For me too many young players stagnate in B team and get used to one way of playing where fairly protected. They should be put into first team sooner when show good enough for chances and if not that go out on loan.

Too many nice, over coached young players spending too much time in B team and need to be out in real world much sooner.

Players being put in early has been a huge success more so than a failure so far in last year or so.

Many success stories in B too such as Araujo/Mingueza/Moriba/Balde who all improved vastly in Barca B. Nobody thought Araujo would become anything then but he became our best CB, after that year with B, massive improvement.

Obv cases like Ansu and Pedri (who had a brilliant season in LaLiga2 at 17, no reason to put him in Segunda B) appear, but B has developed many players as well and the sense that it's less helpful comes from cases like Alena or Collado where it was suggested too much time in B might have hindered them but in reality they were not good enough.

 

[BBZ8800]

Ok, I just skimmed that for a bit, and see that you were sceptical of him then, and maybe you feel you deserve credit for it? Well I guess you do, you saw he wasn't that great back then and that was well done.
I didn't see that much hype in the comments though, but I guess any young player with a few highlights or a good game inevitabely gets a bit hyped by a lot of people yeah...

I am from Croatia, Halilovic played for my favorite domestic club and I knew him well.
Also, I know that smaller teams build their teams around star players to make them look even better (to mask their flaws and cash on him as much as possible).
Which Barca can't do with those players since they won't be key players at Barca.
So, they are protected in smaller teams by their teammates and tactics and all you see is their good sides, but when they come here, you see flaws also.
But then people say: he is not used in the right way (for example, people say that Frenkie is not used as good as at Ajax. But Ajax is another world, different teammates, different culture, different expectations, a team without star players or amigos).
The question is then: are coaches that bad or the players themselves should do more to adapt to different teams, or they just suck?
Maybe Ajax has fooled us with De Ligt and Frenkie and built their team to maximize their strength and they looked way better than they actually are?

About La Masia players, a few years ago, I was pissed off with overhype and went checking some stats and all hyped La Masia players from 2000 till today.
I wrote every single one of them and his career path after Barca B/Barca A.
Iirc, out of 100-120 most talented kids (like Pedri, Puig, Alena, Samper), only 10 of them turned into players for best clubs and 10-ish players turned into squad level for top teams like Motta, Gabri, Oleguer, Roberto, Rafinha.
All other ended at Betis, Levante, Segunda, Austrian league, Israeli league or Japan.

So, roughly, maths say that out of 10 Puigs/Gavis = 1 will turn into a Barca's starter material.
Another one will turn into Roberto.
8 will turn into Sandro, Palencia, Dongou and similar.

If I'll want to be a party-killer, now do the maths: Pedri, Puig, Gavi, Nico, Ansu, Balde, Mingueza, Araujo = and try to guess how many of them:
1. will stay here in 4 years
2. how many of them will turn into starters (if we'll be a good club, and not a Uefa cup level)
3. how many of them will end at Girona/Levante/Beglgium/Austria

Those are 8 young players.
If more than 2 of them will turn into startes, that will be a miracle.
In fact, even if 2 of them will turn into starters, that will be a mini-miracle.

But right now I have killed dreams of a lot of our fans/posters who are reading this and replying to their laptop/mobile phone screens right now: "No. This is not how it will be. These guys are DIFFERENT. They are better than those guys in the past who failed. At least 3-4 out of these guys will make it here."

No, they won't.

 

[JamDav1982]

Many success stories in B too such as Araujo/Mingueza/Moriba/Balde who all improved vastly in Barca B. Nobody thought Araujo would become anything then but he became our best CB, after that year with B, massive improvement.

Obv cases like Ansu and Pedri (who had a brilliant season in LaLiga2 at 17, no reason to put him in Segunda B) appear, but B has developed many players as well and the sense that it's less helpful comes from cases like Alena or Collado where it was suggested too much time in B might have hindered them but in reality they were not good enough.

Mingueza is not so much a success story for B team when he was told wouldnt be starting there any more. If anything he succeeded despite how was seen by time end of B team came around.

Araujo had seen the real world before B team and is/was not an over coached player. He is the type that would never have made it through La Masia.

Balde has been getting chances with first team soon as well and not developed massively with time in B team before getting them. He isnt a good example either.

Moriba like Balde is an example of chances with first team quickly at 17 and neither had spent a long time in B team being seen as main men.

The best Barca youngsters have been those skipping years of development and waiting to be seen to be ready in B team before stepping up.

Fati, Gavi and Pedri are the best three and they were thrown in early.

 

[Bobo32]

I am from Croatia, Halilovic played for my favorite domestic club and I knew him well.
---(Cutting the post for readability)

Yeah ok, so you had a bit of inside information about Halilovic then, nice. I think I'd trust you back then tbqhwy.

I never knew much more than the highlights and the hype, and I was a bit curious about him, but never hyped him or demanded him getting the chance.
I have mostly been correct in my predictions about the youngsters in Barcelona. Jonathan is the one I thought would amount for more, and Puig of course but let's see about him!
Deulofeu, Munir, Sandro, and even the wingers of the Pep era were very much hyped by some, but not by me.

I don't know though what your expectations are for a club to produce players? I'd say that even if you start counting after Thiago, la masia still is one of - if not the - best academies in the world. Unfortunately since LE thereabout the players didn't have a very easy path into Barcelona A.

 

[Redbuck]

Mingueza is not so much a success story for B team when he was told wouldnt be starting there any more. If anything he succeeded despite how was seen by time end of B team came around.

He actually is dawg. I'm sure that most members on this forum did not know about Mingueza before Koeman's arrival. He went from Barca B's 4th choice centre back to a full time first team player in a couple of months. Though luck played its part as well considering the fact that two of his contemporaries left the club (Chumi and Cuenca) while the other was promoted (Araujo) , it was mainly due to hard work and determination that he was promoted to first team and due to the fact that he usually performs well when given a chance , I consider him a success story (as of today though he still has more room to develop into a much better player).

 

[JamDav1982]

He actually is dawg. I'm sure that most members on this forum did not know about Mingueza before Koeman's arrival. He went from Barca B's 4th choice centre back to a full time first team player in a couple of months. Though luck played its part as well considering the fact that two of his contemporaries left the club (Chumi and Cuenca) while the other was promoted (Araujo) , it was mainly due to hard work and determination that he was promoted to first team and due to the fact that he usually performs well when given a chance , I consider him a success story (as of today though he still has more room to develop into a much better player).

Nah dawg the point is he was not a player the B team developed to point they believed him to be ready for first team.

They had more or less given up on him as a CB and Koeman gave him chance and did fairly well at right centre back in a three and RB.

Almost made it and got a chance despite how was seen at B team.

No one is saying him making it to first team is not a 'success story' but if trying to make out all went to plan and he developed through B team to be first team ready and given chances from there is wrong.

 

[Redbuck]

Man, seeing youth prospects who BBZ rooted for over the years fail to make it here has really taken a toll on him. The guy is just as negative as Koeman, and they always say they're being realistic. Sure, being realistic in anything you do ain't bad, but if things aren't bright for you, it doesn't mean you can't be optimistic about something. If you can't find anything to be positive about, it'll be much better if you can keep your negativity to yourself rather than shitting on the positivity of others on this forum. If football scouts were just as negative minded as you and Koeman are, we probably won't have them anymore as they'll retire off thinking that they can't find young prospects who are good enough because the talents they previously scouted didn't make it at the professional level. @ BBZ

 

[Redbuck]

Nah dawg the point is he was not a player the B team developed to point they believed him to be ready for first team.

They had more or less given up on him as a CB and Koeman gave him chance and did fairly well at right centre back in a three and RB.

Almost made it and got a chance despite how was seen at B team.

No one is saying him making it to first team is not a 'success story' but if trying to make out all went to plan and he developed through B team to be first team ready and given chances from there is wrong.

Yeah, you're right. Thanks for clarifying your point much better, I now get where you're coming from.

 

[BBZ8800]

If football scouts were just as negative minded as you and Koeman are, we probably won't have them anymore as they'll retire off thinking that they can't find young prospects who are good enough because the talents they previously scouted didn't make it at the professional level. @ BBZ

Or we'll just buy players like Yusuf.

There ARE good young players out there.
But imo, it is about awesome scouting network + numbers game.
You buy 10 kids, make a lot of risks and 1-2 of them will make it.

Regarding our scouting network, it seems that we are being left behind by other teams in Europe plus it seems that a skill setup which we are looking for is outdated and we are chasing ghosts of 2009-2011.
No other big team would buy wingers without pace like Trincao or Yusuf.
Except Barca.

Add to this our La Masia which is also chasing ghosts and skills setup from 2011 and you get a bunch of mediocre players, usually without physique who look outdated for a current football.

I can be negative or say: don't worry, Yusuf, Nico and friends will all turn out good.

But that's your choice whether you want a blue or a red pill.
Not me.