10 - Lionel Messi - v1

[Metaphysical]

Well these examples are a bit misleading because Messi has mainly played in a Spanish style system where he's certainly a mediapunta (look at who he is compared to), whereas a more orthodox Argentine 10/enganche isn't used as much in Spain as it is in Latin America and Italy.

anyone who's watched Messi play in the last year and still doubts his ability to play as a #10 needs their head checking. I mean he played #10 in the Bernabeu in December and was magnificent! his work for Alexis' goal was very similar to Maradona's dribble against Brazil in that link barcelonista produced.

I don't know if I'd say he's our 2nd best playmaker, but then I hate the term playmaker because it's an ill-fitting term for Football, especially in a team like ours where everyone bar Puyol and Badger (i.e. the rugged CB) makes plays. and even Badger has started whippin' out some tasty 30 yard diagonals of late.

 

[barcelonista]

Ironically the last Clasico was one of the few games in which Messi actually played as a #10, behind Alexis. That's not his usual position though. It's the false #9 in recent years. The 3-4-3 system is the exception (but even then he plays as a false 9 with Fabregas behind him and not a striker infront of him bar the Clasico and the Al Saad game). Even Batista created a false 9 system for Messi because the latter prefered that (with Tevez and Lavezzi on the wings in a 4-3-3). Why is this so hard to comprehend? 98 % of the time he's a striker who drops deep and plays throughballs in the final third. So how do you judge his performances as an enganche?

 

[ricknattery]

Ironically the last Clasico was one of the few games in which Messi actually played as a #10, behind Alexis. That's not his usual position though. It's the false #9 in recent years. The 3-4-3 system is the exception (but even then he plays as a false 9 with Fabregas behind him and not a striker infront of him bar the Clasico and the Al Saad game). Why is this so hard to comprehend? 98 % of the time he's a striker who drops deep and plays throughballs in the final third.

He just doesn't play through balls, he plays horizontal balls looking for the player with more space, slows down the tempo when needed, link plays with iniesta and Xavi, he does everything a midfielder(playmaker if you wish) does. Not sure what you are trying to accomplish here, but realize many people can see you are wrong and haven't seen anybody agreeing with your post because it's just that wrong, you are just going in circles

 

[Metaphysical]

He just doesn't play through balls, he plays horizontal balls looking for the player with more space, slows down the tempo when needed, link plays with iniesta and Xavi, he does everything a midfielder(playmaker if you wish) does. Not sure what you are trying to accomplish here, but realize many people can see you are wrong and haven't seen anybody agreeing with your post because it's just that wrong, you are just going in circles

he doesn't seem to understand that a False9 IS a #10 that lines up as a #9, but instead plays as a #10.

which is why he's a FALSE9.

god, it's really not that complicated.

 

[barcelonista]

He just doesn't play through balls, he plays horizontal balls looking for the player with more space, slows down the tempo when needed, link plays with iniesta and Xavi, he does everything a midfielder(playmaker if you wish) does. Not sure what you are trying to accomplish here, but realize many people can see you are wrong and haven't seen anybody agreeing with your post because it's just that wrong, you are just going in circles

Geez, he's not slowing anything down. When not so long ago Xavi and Iniesta were rested, Pep bemoaned that his players did too much running and he didn't like that. No wonder. No Xavi = no control of the flow and tempo of the game.

It's normal that no one agrees with me here. It's the Messi thread in a Barcelona forum. For the majority in this forum Messi at 24 is the bestest ever player in football history. How can I dare to say he's not also a supreme playmaker? Blasphemous. What I'm trying to accomplish? I'm stating the obvious. Saying that he's no playmaker but "only" a false #9.

 

[barcelonista]

he doesn't seem to understand that a False9 IS a #10 that lines up as a #9, but instead plays as a #10.

which is why he's a FALSE9.

god, it's really not that complicated.

So Klose is a #10 actually?

 

[ricknattery]

Geez, he's not slowing anything down

Do you really watch Barca games? Messi is not all about speed and verticality. He also goes down the pitch and distributes the game, the same way Xavi does, especially when there is a parked bus(pretty much all the time). He is the key(one of them) to find spaces, not just with his dribbling but also with his vision and passes. We are not discussing about the range of the term playmaker anymore, this discussion is about you actually watching Messi play or not

 

[Metaphysical]

So Klose is a #10 actually?

Klose's not a False9. he's a True9 (my word... a target man, essentially). a brilliant one. look at how he moves into channels and brings others into play. it's exactly like Drogba, Larsson, even Zlatan to an extent. all great True9's.

Totti is a great example of a False9. the best non-Messi example, really.

 

[dalitis8]

I think Barcelonista was trying to say that Messi is not as good at playmaking as Maradona was at his day. In doing so, he really went over the top with all the jargon.

Even if Maradona was indeed superior to Messi in playmaking terms (I am not sure how many in here actually watched Maradona play extensively) , Messi can certainly be said to be superior to Maradona in some other respects. The claim that Messi is the best player ever, is not absurd by any stretch of the imagination. It is not self-evident either, but it is certainly more than credible.

 

[barcelonista]

Klose's not a False9. he's a True9 (my word... a target man, essentially). a brilliant one. look at how he moves into channels and brings others into play. it's exactly like Drogba, Larsson, even Zlatan to an extent. all great True9's.

Totti is a great example of a False9. the best non-Messi example, really.

You might want to discuss this with our friend el tren:

Löw needs a false 9, someone with disciplined defensive work, also good on the ball and setting up for others (mostly the wingers). Klose is better at this than Gomez.

http://www.barcaforum.com/showthrea...-come-to-Barca?p=718225&viewfull=1#post718225

You claimed a false 9 would need be a #10 that plays as a #9. Simpy untrue.

 

[ricknattery]

I think Barcelonista was trying to say that Messi is not as good at playmaking as Maradona was at his day. In doing so, he really went over the top with all the jargon.

Even if Maradona was indeed superior to Messi in playmaking terms (I am not sure how many in here actually watched Maradona play extensively) , Messi can certainly be said to be superior to Maradona in some other respects. The claim that Messi is the best player ever, is not absurd by any stretch of the imagination. It is not self-evident either, but it is certainly more than credible.

Barcelonista did not say Messi is inferior to Maradona at playmaking. He said Messi is no playmaker at all. Tha'ts why he is getting so many responses since yesterday

 

[barcelonista]

I think Barcelonista was trying to say that Messi is not as good at playmaking as Maradona was at his day. In doing so, he really went over the top with all the jargon.

What I actually wanted to say was that Messi currently isn't as good a playmaker as ANY famous playmaker, not only Maradona, but also players such as Riquelme or Zidane or Pirlo. Hence why I actually refuse to call him a playmaker at all at this point in his career. Because that's never been asked of him regularly (yes, he's creative, yes he can pass, yes, he drops deep, but doesn't make him a playmaker yet), except for Argentina and he clearly struggles there. As of now he's simply not a playmaker. He's not even Barcelona's focal point (just the focal point in the final third). He's a forward who can pass.

I said everything I have to say. I really am repeating myself.

 

[Metaphysical]

You might want to discuss this with our friend el tren:

http://www.barcaforum.com/showthrea...-come-to-Barca?p=718225&viewfull=1#post718225

just because el tren says it, don't make it true.

I wouldn't say Klose is a False9. no doubt he's MUCH better at the creative side of the game than Gomez is, but that doesn't make him a False9.

You claimed a false 9 would need be a #10 that plays as a #9. Simpy untrue.

yeah, true. a False9 doesn't HAVE to be a #10 (that's my mistake) but they usually are.

 

[Metaphysical]

What I actually wanted to say was that Messi currently isn't as good a playmaker as ANY famous playmaker, not only Maradona, but also players such as Riquelme or Zidane or Pirlo. Hence why I actually refuse to call him a playmaker at all at this point in his career. Because that's never been asked of him regularly (yes, he's creative, yes he can pass, yes, he drops deep, but doesn't make him a playmaker yet), except for Argentina and he clearly struggles there. As of now he's simply not a playmaker. He's not even Barcelona's focal point (just the focal point in the final third). He's a forward who can pass.

I said everything I have to say. I really am repeating myself.

Messi's just a "forward who can pass"?!?!? that's astounding!

you're either a genius that has brought reductionism to football tactics, or a fucking moron.

 

[barcelonista]

How else would you describe him? He can play on the wing, behind the striker, infront of a #10, as a lone striker ... So I just stick with the general terminus forward. "False 9" is the most precise for now though. It's what he plays for a bit more than 2 seasons now. No need for name-calling. Go suck a donkey dick.

And finally, let's see what Mr. Rob Hughes from the NY Times has to say:

Playmaker Is the Piece Argentina Is Missing

Banega, 23, is the closest thing Argentina has in this squad to a fantasista, a playmaker. Without one of those, all the forward running of Messi, of Tévez , of Ezequiel Lavezzi — or of any of the reserves: Ángel Di Maria, Sergio Agüero, Javier Pastore, Gonzalo Higuaín and Diego Milito — is wasted.

Messi takes the stick because Messi is Messi. On Friday, he had to do what he seldom has to do with Barcelona, to forage deeper and deeper in search of the ball. Nobody was providing it, nobody was establishing a rhythm.

Where is Argentina’s fantasista? Batista is clearly hoping it lies within Banega. The 23-year-old is growing into that role for Valencia, but Banega is attempting to tread where more recent Argentine playmakers — Juan Sebastián Veron, Juan Román Riquelme, Pablo Aimar — have failed to convince.

But I guess a sports columnist for 4 decades for one of the most credible papers in the world who has reported on the WC since 1974 isn't as credible as some forum experts here.