10 - Lionel Messi - v1

[winda]

messi is a playmaker....he has dropped quite deep in almost every game this season.

he also plays consistently every matches.

there is no nees to continue debating who is better and whatnot....

why must there be a great divide among cules..we should be thankful...


and also, call me bias or what.... as great as zidane was, he is still a madrista....

 

[barcelonista]

messi is a playmaker....he has dropped quite deep in almost every game this season.

He's dropping deep for Barcelona since he's playing as a false #9. That's the whole point of a false 9 system.

 

[Metaphysical]

Maradona was the same (with even better finishing, dribbling and passing). He was the creative force all over the pitch and actually a playmaker (it's the only reason I still rate him above Messi).

Compare that with Messi who's only got a presence in the final third of the pitch, doing basically 1 thing: dribble directly towards goal as far as he can and release the ball for the "last pass". It's what every winger in the world does (just not as succesfully as Messi). He's providing directness. But he's not playmaking.

 

[BarcaGirl]

Messi's new Interview with Ecuadorian sports magazine Don Balon


As predicted, it was a triumphant end to the year for FC Barcelona’s Lionel Messi. He not only succeeded in helping his team lift the club’s second Club World Cup trophy, but he also was awarded many individual accolades in December.

Of all the numerous recognitions given to Messi, none were more poignant to him than the last two that he received from his home country – Argentina’s ‘Clarin de Oro’ Footballer of the Year award, handed out by the nation’s Clarin multimedia group, and the Argentina’s Sports Journalist Association ‘Olimpia de Oro’ award for being named as the nation’s Sportsman of the Year. This was the first time his accomplishments were acknowledged by his countrymen.

Later that month, French newspaper L’Equipe picked him as their International Sportsman of the Year, and awarded the player the ‘Champion of Champions’ award, followed a few days later by Cuba Prensa Latina’s Latin America and the Caribbean 2011 Best Male Athlete’ award.

It is the opinion of more and more people that you, Leo Messi, are the best footballer of all time. Do you accept that that’s true?

First of all, I‘m only 24 and I have not done much to begin with. On top of that, I have a lot of respect for past great players, the likes of Di Stefano, Pele and Maradona. It would be better for people to judge my achievements by the time I’m finished with my footballing career, for neither do I wish to be compared to them nor is that one of my objectives. All I want is to be able go out there and play every match I can and try to give my best.

What success limits are you aiming for then? Is it possible for you to even improve as a footballer [any more than you are already]?
My objectives are related to the team for which I play. My limit is always to win everything with Barcelona and the Argentina national team. That is what I always have in my mind when I go out to play. I’m not thinking of any long term targets.

It seems that it is easier for you to achieve with FC Barcelona than it is with Argentina…
In Barcelona, I’m there the whole year so it is easier for me to create an understanding with my teammates, who happen to be excellent footballers themselves. But Argentina is also blessed with players of the highest level. I’m sure sooner or later I’ll be able to repeat with the Albiceleste the successes that I’ve reaped with Barcelona. It is just a question of working on our understanding with each other and playing as the great team that we are. There are a great many good players in Argentina.

There are those who have difficulty acknowledging you as the undisputed number one on this planet by arguing that as long as you fail to win a World Cup, you will not be on a par with the greatest of them…
To me, Di Stefano is one of the greatest, and he, too, has never won a World Cup. I don’t believe anybody will ever dispute that he is one in the history of football. Anyway, there is still time for me and I’m going to do everything that is possible… even impossible, to see to it that Argentina will one day be the world champion [again].

Do you consider yourself handsome, rich and a great player?
I’m someone who tries to repay, on the pitch, the affection that is given to me [by my fans].

You’ve been with FC Barcelona your whole life; have you never been tempted to test yourself at another club?
I’m at the best club in the world. No other team will be able to satisfy me the way Barcelona does. I hope to be here until they get tired of me, and I hope that time will never come.

The truth is that recently Thiago Motta and Diego Maradona linked your name with Inter Milan. Is there anything special with this club?
Inter is one of the biggest clubs in Europe and the world but I’m already at the biggest of them all. I’m happy here and I do believe the people at this club are also happy with me. Why would I want to change that?

A few months ago you did mention that you will never be playing for Real Madrid…
I grew up in la Masia and I’ve become a man clothed in the colours blue and scarlet [balugrana]. I can’t even contemplate myself donning the jersey of Madrid or any other… although Madrid is also a great club.

Do you feel more comfortable linking up with Xavi or Iniesta than with Villa or Keita? Your critics say that you seldom pass the ball to Villa…
Since when have I not made a pass to Villa? That’s ludicrous! Review the videos back again and they will see all the goals that Barca have scored are thanks to Villa’s and my combination play.

Eto’o, Ibrahimovic, Bojan… It seems you don’t work well with a pure ‘9’ in your side?
That is just silly. I have a very good understanding with the three of them, and we were perfectly compatible. If they are not at the club anymore it is purely down to the coach’s decision.

What can you tell us about Ronaldinho, your mentor during your early years in FC Barcelona?
We talk to each other occasionally to catch up on things. He is a great person. He accomplished a lot of great things as a Barcelona player.

Is Guardiola the ideal coach for you?
The boss knows the club better than any of us. He was once a ball boy, a player and now the club’s head coach. He is very intelligent. He knows what action is necessary at every moment, and knows how to treat each and every player [under him]. He is also an excellent motivator. He’s someone I find very pleasing.

Imagine what you could have accomplished by playing for the Spanish national team?
No, I can’t envisage it. I enjoy watching every match they play. It’s almost like Barca dressed as la Roja so every match is played as if it was Barca playing, but it is the Spanish national team because of the exception of two or three positions.

Have you given any thought of what you want to do when you hang up your boots? Can you see yourself coaching Argentina?
At 24, it is difficult to think about these things. I have a lot of roads to travel before such a distant future beckons.

When can we begin to hear you speak Catalan?
I’m very bad with the language. I understand it perfectly and might be able to speak it, but it would not be as fluid as I would like it to be. I don’t wish to offend anyone by ruining such a beautiful language.

http://www.totalbarca.com/2012/interviews/messi-exclusive-interview-with-ecuadors-don-balon/


Humble as always. I especially love this last answer ...so cute.

 

[mitkoa7x]

I didnt know Leo couldnt speak Catalan...

 

[barcelonista]

Are you introducing yourself to the discussion? Feel free to do so.

 

[lessthanjake]

I agree. Messi is the best they have. Since they don't have a genuine playmaker at all, Messi as their best all-around player is functioning as their makeshift playmaker.



I completely disagree. Zidane and Maradona were typical number 10s and they didn't wait for others to deliver them the ball to their feet. They constantly dropped deep and made "things happen" themselves. This a prime example of what a playmaker should do:

He's winning the ball back, holding possession, dribbling past players and initiating attacks in his own half. Where do you see him waiting upfront to receive the ball to his feet? HE is supposed to spray passes left and right to others and not wait to receive passes if he's the playmaker.

Here's the extended video:

Maradona was the same (with even better finishing, dribbling and passing). He was the creative force all over the pitch and actually a playmaker (it's the only reason I still rate him above Messi).

Compare that with Messi who's only got a presence in the final third of the pitch, doing basically 1 thing: dribble directly towards goal as far as he can and release the ball for the "last pass". It's what every winger in the world does (just not as succesfully as Messi). He's providing directness. But he's not playmaking.

To some degree this is true. However, Messi DOES actually have a presence in the middle third as well, particularly this year. He tends to sometimes drop very deep. In some matches he does this most of the time.

He is also not really like a winger in this way. Yes, he too tries to beat defenders and get in a final ball. However, Messi starts this from a much deeper point in the pitch than a typical winger would. A winger virtually always gets the ball in the final third, typically closer to the goal line than to the middle of the pitch. This, combined with the fact that he gets the ball near the touchline means it is much harder to get the ball to him in an attacking position. There generally needs to be a penetrating ball of some sort just to get it to the winger. This makes such a player a forward, not a playmaker.

Messi frequently starts his moves in the middle of the park just past the half way line. This means it is much easier for him to get the ball in the position to start his moves. The team doesn't need a penetrating ball behind the defense just to get him the ball. Because not much is required to get him the ball before he sets other players up, this makes him a playmaker in my opinion. A very very direct playmaker, but a playmaker nonetheless.

 

[zanela]

I completely disagree. Zidane and Maradona were typical number 10s and they didn't wait for others to deliver them the ball to their feet. They constantly dropped deep and made "things happen" themselves. This a prime example of what a playmaker should do:

He's winning the ball back, holding possession, dribbling past players and initiating attacks in his own half. Where do you see him waiting upfront to receive the ball to his feet? HE is supposed to spray passes left and right to others and not wait to receive passes if he's the playmaker.

Maradona was the same (with even better finishing, dribbling and passing). He was the creative force all over the pitch and actually a playmaker (it's the only reason I still rate him above Messi).

Compare that with Messi who's only got a presence in the final third of the pitch, doing basically 1 thing: dribble directly towards goal as far as he can and release the ball for the "last pass". It's what every winger in the world does (just not as succesfully as Messi). He's providing directness. But he's not playmaking.

In response to the above i'll 've to quote you again:

The overview over the pitch is far too limited for a #10 to control things. I'd rather call Messi a "second / supporting striker" than a playmaker.

Were you not implying only deep-lying midfielders can be playmakers?

Both Maradona and Zidane were #10s but controlled things. The #10s don't sit deep, they drop deep when the situation warrants, but don't do so in regularity. Not only is it tiring over the course of a match, but there is a midfield stationed behind that is meant to provide them.
Maradona had a midfield support of Batista, Burruchaga and H. Enrique in 1986. And whilst he came deep, he had players who won the ball and constantly fed him. Maradona played as a second striker.
Zidane had the likes of Vieira and Makélélé who assisted him. I can produce a 8 min video which 'll show messi retrieving ball in midfield, initiating attacks, dribbling past players and then laying off the final pass. But neither Zidane, nor Maradona, or Messi can do all that with regularity in a match. while they do drop deep, the rest of the time they are dependant on their midfield for ball delivery.
Messi's Argentina is lacking consistency owing to the continuous change in personnel and tactics. Both Zidane and Maradona were afforded consistency. A functioning system, where each player knew his role and executed to the tee. The latter 2 played in front of a proper midfield. Can you tell me what is the current Argentina midfield? I certainly don't and i hardly miss an Argie game.

I'm not sure if i should even bother with the last part of your post, where you've tried your very best at reducing Messi in to some-sort of a one-dimensional player.
I mean even your average winger does more than what you've described Messi there. That's shameful coming from someone who claims to be a Barca fan. But then you're finding it hard understanding the basics of playmaking.

Have you heard of something called a build-up to a goal? Now in any given sequence, how many touches you think Messi has? From what i see, its only sec to Xavi, or even more than Xavi sometimes. Every play flows through him. The spreading play, the give n go, linking-up, the through ball, Messi is at the heart of it all.

You want to constraint your football thought and outlook, be my guest. It's your loss. But please don't do a disservice to the greatest player of this generation by reducing him to a mere Diego Capel.

 

[jayzsa]

very good post, as accurate as it gets

 

[barcelonista]

Were you not implying only deep-lying midfielders can be playmakers?

Maradona played as a second striker.

No and no. But I agree that I should have specified. Number 10 != number 10. There is a reason why the likes of Zidane, Riquelme and Maradona are called enganches in Spanish (what I personally called a "genuine playmaker" here) whereas Messi is widely regarded as a media punta (second striker). If you speak Spanish, there you go: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrocampista Obviously there is a difference between #10s, despite all of them wearing the same jersey number and officialy playing "in the hole" on paper. Maradona is widely regarded (and officially by FIFA described) as a playmaker. It's one of the reasons why his goal tally isn't even highly impressive. Because goalscoring was never his main task (other than Messi). It's actually Messi who's the second striker. Maradona in 1986 played his best behind 2 strikers in a 3-5-2. Messi, for Argentina as well as for Barcelona, plays as a lone striker / false 9 supported by wing forwards, mostly in a 4-3-3. He obviously does not even prefer playing behind another striker. The Argentina coaches are obviously communicating with him to play a system he prefers and up until now it's always ended up being a false 9 system where he's playing as the lone central forward, dropping deep and using his dribbling ability to run into the extra space infront of him. Ibrahimovic started to look like a useless lump because we deployed Messi behind him and Messi was just using him as a decoy and ignoring him, playing around him. Simply like a goalscorer that he is, looking for the goal primarly. So how can someone who prefers to play farthest upfront centrally on the pitch be a playmaker? He can't.

Messi's Argentina is lacking consistency owing to the continuous change in personnel and tactics. Both Zidane and Maradona were afforded consistency. A functioning system, where each player knew his role and executed to the tee. The latter 2 played in front of a proper midfield. Can you tell me what is the current Argentina midfield? I certainly don't and i hardly miss an Argie game.

Chicken and egg issue. It's lacking consistency for a good reason. Because Messi doesn't work as they expect him to work since ... well, since their best playmaker since Maradona retired for the national team: Riquelme.

Have you heard of something called a build-up to a goal? Now in any given sequence, how many touches you think Messi has? From what i see, its only sec to Xavi, or even more than Xavi sometimes. Every play flows through him. The spreading play, the give n go, linking-up, the through ball, Messi is at the heart of it all.

He's not at the heart of it all. He's just the focal point in attack since he's the best forward we have by a country mile and therefore he's the one seeing most of the ball by a team with a shortpassing philosophy. Regardless: the most passes are being played by the 2 playmakers of our team though: Xavi and Iniesta. After that, you wouldn't expect Pedro or Villa to see most of the ball anyway, would you?

Zidane had the likes of Vieira and Makélélé who assisted him. I can produce a 8 min video which 'll show messi retrieving ball in midfield, initiating attacks, dribbling past players and then laying off the final pass. But neither Zidane, nor Maradona, or Messi can do all that with regularity in a match. while they do drop deep, the rest of the time they are dependant on their midfield for ball delivery.

Messi's not playing with pub players, is he? Mascherano is regarded as one of the best defensive midfielders and ball winners in the game. The likes of Cambiasso and Banega aren't bad either. Argentina's problem has never been that they don't play the ball to Messi's feet. They are doing that even more than they should. There problem has been that they can't score against the likes of Bolivia or a 10 man Uruguay on their home soil. After the Germany debacle, their problem has not even been their shitty defence. I think they never conceded more than 1 goal in a game since then.

And yes, Maradona did it regularly. Messi is the focal point in the final third. Maradona was the focal point of the whole team:

If you want to call Messi a "forward playmaker" or whatever I'm fine with that. He's not the kind of playmaker people understand when talking about the term playmaker though, like Zidane, Maradona, Riquelme, Xavi or Pirlo. He's a forward with supreme passing ability. At least up until now. As I said: he's special and CAN grow into a playmaker. Because he has all the abilities for it.

 

[Metaphysical]

Maradona was a mediapunta, you melon.

Messi is stylistically like him, and he was stylistically like Sivori. there's an Argentine lineage of these small left-footed mediapuntas (they're called #10's in Argentina, and the centrocampista/volante is called the #5). that's why Messi has become Argentina's playmaker since Riquelme (also a mediapunta) left the scene.

you've created a semantic labyrinth to try and validate your stance outside of your own perspective. but it hasn't worked. Z has taken you apart repeatedly.

so you only consider centrocampistas to be playmakers? fine. that's retarded but if you believe that then fine, be consistent. Iniesta, Zidane, Maradona, Riquelme... none of these can be playmakers as they are mediapuntas. players who do their work between the lines of midfield and defence.

 

[La Furia]

If you are talking about Argentine #10s, it's "enganche".

 

[barcelonista]

Maradona was a mediapunta, you melon.

Messi is stylistically like him, and he was stylistically like Sivori. there's an Argentine lineage of these small left-footed mediapuntas (they're called #10's in Argentina, and the centrocampista/volante is called the #5). that's why Messi has become Argentina's playmaker since Riquelme (also a mediapunta) left the scene.

you've created a semantic labyrinth to try and validate your stance outside of your own perspective. but it hasn't worked. Z has taken you apart repeatedly.

so you only consider centrocampistas to be playmakers? fine. that's retarded but if you believe that then fine, be consistent. Iniesta, Zidane, Maradona, Riquelme... none of these can be playmakers as they are mediapuntas. players who do their work between the lines of midfield and defence.

They aren't mediapuntas, you apple. How about clicking on the link instead of just reading the link title?

Zidane, Maradona, Riquelme: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrocampista#Volante_de_creaci.C3.B3n
Messi: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrocampista#Media_Punta

Here is some text in English (if you don't speak Spanish) that explains why he's not "stylistically like him" (an enganche): http://www.argentinafootballworld.c...h-of-the-playmaker-a-premature-diagnosis.html

Wearing the same jersey numbers don't make them the same type of players.

 

[La Furia]

They aren't mediapuntas, you apple. How about clicking on the link instead of just reading the link title?

Zidane, Maradona, Riquelme: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrocampista#Volante_de_creaci.C3.B3n
Messi: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrocampista#Media_Punta

Well these examples are a bit misleading because Messi has mainly played in a Spanish style system where he's certainly a mediapunta (look at who he is compared to), whereas a more orthodox Argentine 10/enganche isn't used as much in Spain as it is in Latin America and Italy.

Also these examples are pretty terrible also, especally for volante mixto.

 

[Metaphysical]

They aren't mediapuntas, you apple. How about clicking on the link instead of just reading the link title?

Zidane, Maradona, Riquelme: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrocampista#Volante_de_creaci.C3.B3n
Messi: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centrocampista#Media_Punta

I did read it.

I didn't comment because I thought it was ridiculous that while you are arguing that Maradona was a playmaker like Xavi (whereas Messi isn't) you then produce as evidence a link that says Maradona was nothing like Xavi.

Here is some text in English (if you don't speak Spanish) that explains why he's not a Maradona type of player (enganche): http://www.argentinafootballworld.c...h-of-the-playmaker-a-premature-diagnosis.html

so you bring me a 18 month old article as some sort of proof that Messi isn't a enganche? have been asleep for the last year? Messi has made phenomenal leaps in his game since then. hell that article was proven wrong as soon after publication as the fucking World Cup itself! Messi operated as an enganche and did a superb job. only his coaches utter idiocy stopped his team from advancing further (I know #10 and #5 are the main midfield roles for Argentina but that doesn't mean they should be the ONLY midfield roles!)

and since 2010 Messi has demonstrated the ability to slow the game down and find simple as well as killer passes. he didn't do it as much in 09/10 because Zlatan didn't move much as he wasn't happy at playing ahead of a #10 as he felt he needed the freedom of a #10 and a #9 to be truly effective.