10 - Lionel Messi - v1

[BarcaNamul]

Full reportage about Messi and behind the scenes of Barca vs Osasuna

Pls can you explain a bit about this video and the story of it? ( i dont understand spanish :S )

 

[jamrock]

When Bayer 04 Leverkusen held Borussia Dortmund 0-0 in August, they restricted the free-flowing Bundesliga champions to a handful of chances. Leverkusen coach Robin Dutt said they had pinpointed centre-back Mats Hummels as Dortmund's playmaker. To underline his point, Dutt repeated: "Not centre-back, but playmaker."

 

[tariqo]

What?!? That's crazy talk...Messi obviously has an edge athletically but in terms of ball control and passing he's nowhere near as consistent and a little less talented than Iniesta.

 

[zanela]

What?!? That's crazy talk...Messi obviously has an edge athletically but in terms of ball control and passing he's nowhere near as consistent and a little less talented than Iniesta. Iniesta passes more accurately, plays off both feet and has the most ridiculous blind passing around. Iniesta's also better at reading the game, no worse than Xavi at that.

Not crazy anymore. Iniesta may be second best for some, but that wouldn't be calling it objectively. I'm not aware of the average pass completion, but if messi is not as consistent as Iniesta is because he usually attempts the difficult. Be it the dribble and layoff or picking a narrow opening in a crowded area. His final/secondary ball leads to a goal more than Iniesta's even when the latter operates in the attacking third as much as Leo. In recent times, messi's passing from deeper positions has also become more efficient and threatening. He provides a creative impetus like no other. Obviously adding Iniesta in to the equation enhances the team creativity. But individually Leo is a greater creative source.

When Bayer 04 Leverkusen held Borussia Dortmund 0-0 in August, they restricted the free-flowing Bundesliga champions to a handful of chances. Leverkusen coach Robin Dutt said they had pinpointed centre-back Mats Hummels as Dortmund's playmaker. To underline his point, Dutt repeated: "Not centre-back, but playmaker."

Jam keepin' it real, like always.

 

[Metaphysical]

playmaker is an Americanism which, truth be told, doesn't apply to football which is less compartmentalised and much more fluid.

the playmaker is whoever has the ball at their feet. especially since the Hungarians, Brazilians and the Dutch took it to the next level.

 

[La Furia]

playmaker is an Americanism which, truth be told, doesn't apply to football which is less compartmentalised and much more fluid.

the playmaker is whoever has the ball at their feet. especially since the Hungarians, Brazilians and the Dutch took it to the next level.

Most teams don't play like the 70s Brazilians or Dutch though. And if you want to give those three exclusive credit for the tactical evolution of the game you are doing a lot of people a disservice.

It's still pretty empty a term but I guess it works like, in English football where only 1 or 2 guys a team are good passers. I usually use it for volantes, but even that's not entirely accurate as they usually don't get the assist. All I know is football is the only sport that cannot be quantified at all, perhaps strikers with goals and to a lesser extent shots on target over shots, but even that is highly deceptive.

 

[Het_fenomeen_Messi]

what?!? That's crazy talk...messi obviously has an edge athletically but in terms of ball control and passing he's nowhere near as consistent and a little less talented than iniesta. Iniesta passes more accurately, plays off both feet and has the most ridiculous blind passing around. Iniesta's also better at reading the game, no worse than xavi at that.

o m g

 

[Aryagorn]

the playmaker is whoever has the ball at their feet.

is a ballhog a playmaker too?

 

[Het_fenomeen_Messi]

 

[barcelonista]

When Bayer 04 Leverkusen held Borussia Dortmund 0-0 in August, they restricted the free-flowing Bundesliga champions to a handful of chances. Leverkusen coach Robin Dutt said they had pinpointed centre-back Mats Hummels as Dortmund's playmaker. To underline his point, Dutt repeated: "Not centre-back, but playmaker."

Yes, he used that term as a hyperbole to point out that they stopped him from initiating attacks from the back. It's a hyperbole. It's like saying: "We tried to stop Dani Alves as a winger." Or: "We tried to stop Fabregas acting as a striker." It doesn't mean that Alves is a winger or Fabregas is a striker.

To make no mistakes, Messi is forced into the playmaker role for Argentina as well. The fact that he fails in that role is the biggest sign that he is not a natural playmaker though. Riquelme was not a better player than Messi. He was a better playmaker though. That's why he was untouchable at times. Germany in 2006 couldn't get anywhere near him (Argentina broke down exactly when he was subbed off, conceded a goal only after 8 minutes without him on the pitch). He was controlling the whole flow of the game. A true playmaker. Argentina didn't have better players or a better coach in 2006. But they still looked more organised than nowadays? Yeah, well, they don't have a playmaker to organise things now. They had in 2006.

 

[Aryagorn]

Fabregaas IS a striker

 

[BarcaGirl]

"I'm at the best club in the world, no other team could fulfil me as much as Barcelona does; I hope to stay here until they get tired of me, which is hopefully never. "I grew up in La Masia and I have become a man in Azulgrana colors. I don’t see myself wearing a Madrid shirt or any other one."

"The coach knows the club better than any of us. He was a ball boy, player and now coach. He is very smart, knows what needs to be done at all times and how to treat each player. He is also an excellent motivator. I feel very comfortable with him."

"I am only 24 years old, I have just started. I have so much respect for people who have been great, such as [Alfredo] Di Stefano, Pele or [Diego] Maradona," he added. "I should be judged when I finish my career because I do not like talking about myself, and I do not plan goals like that."

"Di Stefano is a great but never won a World Cup. I will do everything possible to make Argentina world champions," he pledged.

"Argentina has top quality players and I'm sure I can repeat the success with the national side. We are getting better every time we meet and play together."

 

[Kinlejus]

 

[zanela]

To make no mistakes, Messi is forced into the playmaker role for Argentina as well. The fact that he fails in that role is the biggest sign that he is not a natural playmaker though. Riquelme was not a better player than Messi. He was a better playmaker though. That's why he was untouchable at times. Germany in 2006 couldn't get anywhere near him (Argentina broke down exactly when he was subbed off, conceded a goal only after 8 minutes without him on the pitch). He was controlling the whole flow of the game. A true playmaker. Argentina didn't have better players or a better coach in 2006. But they still looked more organised than nowadays? Yeah, well, they don't have a playmaker to organise things now. They had in 2006.

Messi's playmaking for Argentina has never been in question, it's his finishing. He's the best playmaker Argies have available (tell me a better one) Every playmaker in this world needs support, constantly fed with the ball and given passing options upfront. When the personnel and tactics keep changing your overall team play takes a beating, its harder to establish team chemistry. Your #10 shouldn't 've to keep dropping deeper for the ball, it needs to be delivered to him. Now how many times have you seen it happen with Messi, where he had to be the ball carrier from deep midfield. Deep-lying playmakers have it relatively easy in this regard, because thats where they operate but the creative burden does not entirely fall on them, which means they can win the ball and just pass it to more a creative option forward. And just keep things simple and ticking. But when an advanced midfielder is designated as the primary playmaker, he needs a ball winner and supplier behind. Now if messi was to only play-make that'd be fine, but more often than not he's assuming extra duties over it. He's ball winning, carrying, creating and finishing. Now even your Xavi's or Riquelme's can't do all by themselves. Even then he's created innumerable chances for his teammates and for himself which just haven't been converted enough.

 

[barcelonista]

Messi's playmaking for Argentina has never been in question, it's his finishing. He's the best playmaker Argies have available (tell me a better one)

I agree. Messi is the best they have. Since they don't have a genuine playmaker at all, Messi as their best all-around player is functioning as their makeshift playmaker.

Your #10 shouldn't 've to keep dropping deeper for the ball, it needs to be delivered to him.

I completely disagree. Zidane and Maradona were typical number 10s and they didn't wait for others to deliver them the ball to their feet. They constantly dropped deep and made "things happen" themselves. This a prime example of what a playmaker should do:

He's winning the ball back, holding possession, dribbling past players and initiating attacks in his own half. Where do you see him waiting upfront to receive the ball to his feet? HE is supposed to spray passes left and right to others and not wait to receive passes if he's the playmaker.

Here's the extended video:

Maradona was the same (with even better finishing, dribbling and passing). He was the creative force all over the pitch and actually a playmaker (it's the only reason I still rate him above Messi).

Compare that with Messi who's only got a presence in the final third of the pitch, doing basically 1 thing: dribble directly towards goal as far as he can and release the ball for the "last pass". It's what every winger in the world does (just not as succesfully as Messi). He's providing directness. But he's not playmaking.