10 - Lionel Messi - v2

[Flavia]

Get the ball and pass it to whom?
The huge space his absence has just created?
We have the best midfielders in the world(the same players who constitute the midfield of the greatest national team ever) I am sure they can run the midfield just fine if he did not meddle all the time and just made runs to create space for them and and give them a target to hit.

Xavi was coming back from injury and had a bad game against Milan. Iniesta and Cesc as well. I fail to see who had a really good game, the team was bad. So he tracked back, trying to help. It wasn't Messi's fault, he was shut down, he always tries that when he's heavily marked upfront. Seems you forgot Messi was, the past 2 seasons, the one with more assists on this team. His dropping deep has even won a clasico on bernabeu, when he played deep and assisted Abidal. The problem is not Messi, is the lack of Villa and a clinical Pedro upfront.

 

[mikecraig]

Xavi was coming back from injury and had a bad game against Milan. Iniesta and Cesc as well. I fail to see who had a really good game, the team was bad. So he tracked back, trying to help. It wasn't Messi's fault, he was shut down, he always tries that when he's heavily marked upfront. Seems you forgot Messi was, the past 2 seasons, the one with more assists on this team. His dropping deep has even won a clasico on bernabeu, when he played deep and assisted Abidal. The problem is not Messi, is the lack of Villa and a clinical Pedro upfront.

The reason why he has all those assists is because he has deprived the others of the freedom of their position
Now everybody plays for messi, handing over the ball when ever he drops in THEIR position

 

[mikecraig]

I don't want my team to have the best payer in the world, I want my team to have the best in the world
False 9 with everything going through nessi is good for Messi as it gets him crazy stats and wins him all the awards but it makes the team weaker.
Ever wonder why he had his best season when everybody else looked at their poores and we won nothing?

 

[Flavia]

The reason why he has all those assists is because he has deprived the others of the freedom of their position
Now everybody plays for messi, handing over the ball when ever he drops in THEIR position

So bad Messi has so many goals and assists, huh? He didn't deprive anyone from anything. He doesn't only assist from dropping deep, anyway.
I really don't understand how a barça fan can hate Messi. Really funny stuff.

 

[mikecraig]

So bad Messi has so many goals and assists, huh? He didn't deprive anyone from anything. He doesn't only assist from dropping deep, anyway.
I really don't understand how a barça fan can hate Messi. Really funny stuff.

That is the problem with the world today
"You are either with us or against us"
It is always black and white
Never any middle ground
I like Messi but I like Barca more. I believe that Messi adapt himself to the needs of the team not the team to messi. Thus if the TEAMS needs are best served with Messi playing RB so be it
I do not want us to be a 1 man team which we have become it is dangerous because nobody can play well everytime

What does our treble winning team have in common with the spanish nation team?
They are/were both TEAMS in the real sense

 

[raskolnikov]

False 9 doesnt work against solid defensive teams imo.
A real striker would be better, the only option is Villa, put Messi at the right wing and Tello to the left. Xavi/Iniesta behind it.
It would create width which is needed to stretch the play.
On a good wider camp nou pitch we could change the game play with that style.

Im really worried our staff will be stubborn or arrogant and keep sticking to the same line up and keep hoping it will pay off.
We struggle everytime against these type of play so change is needed.

 

[Flavia]

I don't want my team to have the best payer in the world, I want my team to have the best in the world
False 9 with everything going through nessi is good for Messi as it gets him crazy stats and wins him all the awards but it makes the team weaker.
Ever wonder why he had his best season when everybody else looked at their poores and we won nothing?

He had to step up last season. He carried Barça almost by himself, because there was no choice. I didn't like that, but if not for him, it'd have been much worse. And this "everybody else looked poorer" is not accurate. We lost Villa, Puyol, Abidal, and the replacements didn't do their job. Much like this season, last season the defense problems, and the lack of a Villa type of player hurt a lot. Pedro had injuries and was bad, Alexis was ok, but also a lot of injuries, Cesc had a good 1st half of season, then declined. If Messi didn't score all those goals, who would have?
So this is not his fault, because he "demands all goes thru him" because he doesnt. Messi is a team player, always was.

 

[mikecraig]

He had to step up last season. He carried Barça almost by himself, because there was no choice. I didn't like that, but if not for him, it'd have been much worse. And this "everybody else looked poorer" is not accurate. We lost Villa, Puyol, Abidal, and the replacements didn't do their job. Much like this season, last season the defense problems, and the lack of a Villa type of player hurt a lot. Pedro had injuries and was bad, Alexis was ok, but also a lot of injuries, Cesc had a good 1st half of season, then declined. If Messi didn't score all those goals, who would have?
So this is not his fault, because he "demands all goes thru him" because he doesnt. Messi is a team player, always was.

Who said it was his fault?
I have never blamed him, it is not even good for the poor fellow to have to carry such a burden. I blame the people who put the inherently flawed system in place
Pep and our management sold all our defenders and goal scorers and replacing them with midfielders and wingers which we already had a lot of thus unbalancing the team.
Our transfer dealing in the last few years were so bad that it is beyong incompetence and I suspect fraud

 

[Flavia]

Who said it was his fault?
I have never blamed him, I blame the people who put the inherently flawed system in place
Pep and our management sold all our defenders and goal scorers and replacing them with midfielders and wingers which we already had a lot of thus unbalancing the team.
Our transfer dealing in the last few years were so bad that it is beyong incompetence and I suspect fraud

The system is not flawed. It's unbalanced right now, with too many midfielders playing at once, and only with Messi as a real goal threat. But it was this system that made barça the best team in the world.
The problem is not Messi at false 9, it's the lack of other goalscorers, and Iniesta at LW with Cesc in the middle. Pedro and Alexis having subpar performances is not helping either, and the defense is the worst part of it all.

 

[mikecraig]

False 9 doesnt work against solid defensive teams imo.
A real striker would be better, the only option is Villa, put Messi at the right wing and Tello to the left. Xavi/Iniesta behind it.
It would create width which is needed to stretch the play.
On a good wider camp nou pitch we could change the game play with that style.

Im really worried our staff will be stubborn or arrogant and keep sticking to the same line up and keep hoping it will pay off.
We struggle everytime against these type of play so change is needed.

The problem is that our Management team suffer from "group think" as a result of inbreeding. Thus they prob believe that if we just passed the ball faster and moved better everything would be fine.

 

[darthvader7888]

The system is not flawed. It's unbalanced right now, with too many midfielders playing at once, and only with Messi as a real goal threat. But it was this system that made barça the best team in the world.
The problem is not Messi at false 9, it's the lack of other goalscorers, and Iniesta at LW with Cesc in the middle. Pedro and Alexis having subpar performances is not helping either, and the defense is the worst part of it all.

IMO, next season, something like this lineup can fix the flaws you mentioned
Alves/Montoya-Pique-Hummels-Abidal/Alba
Xavi-Busquets-Iniesta
Pedro-Messi-Villa

A good CB like Hummels to replace Puyol and not playing Alves and Alba at the same time should solve the issue of the defense. Having Villa up front provides 2 goalscorers. Maybe use Tello on the right at times to provide 3.

 

[mikecraig]

The system is not flawed. It's unbalanced right now, with too many midfielders playing at once, and only with Messi as a real goal threat. But it was this system that made barça the best team in the world.
The problem is not Messi at false 9, it's the lack of other goalscorers, and Iniesta at LW with Cesc in the middle. Pedro and Alexis having subpar performances is not helping either, and the defense is the worst part of it all.

Well I am glad we finally agree on something.
Pep over did it and sent our squad back by a few years. He was no t genius just at the right place at the right time who by the end of his reign had become a hinderance to this team
The real geniuses were Messi and gang
We will leave the arguments about the merits of false 9 for another day
I am also glad people are beginning to accept that
1- we need our forwards to more than just "work hard"
2- iniesta should play in the middle (I remember some joker using a LEVANTE game as an example of why Iniesta can play wide) freaking Levante.

 

[misterplatin]

Who said it was his fault?
I have never blamed him, it is not even good for the poor fellow to have to carry such a burden. I blame the people who put the inherently flawed system in place
Pep and our management sold all our defenders and goal scorers and replacing them with midfielders and wingers which we already had a lot of thus unbalancing the team.
Our transfer dealing in the last few years were so bad that it is beyong incompetence and I suspect fraud

I don't want to talk about the club policies here but about Messi I have the same opinion as yours . There is a reason Xavi ,who had most key-passes in Euro12 just like WC10 and Euro08 , has a poor chance creating record at Barca in last 2 years .Who can he put through on goal ? Messi never makes those runs behind defenders and wide forwards are only covering their fullbacks bombing forward .If we look at the goals scored in football from stat point , I am sure a big chunk comes from situations where the CF makes the run to evade his marker . So saying that this present strategy is the most effective is not right IMO . I still believe the Messi as tip of attack strategy was decided not because of existing problems in old systems .There was no structural problem in old style. But also 'false 9' works fine most of the time except crucial war like matches .

 

[mikecraig]

IMO, next season, something like this lineup can fix the flaws you mentioned
Alves/Montoya-Pique-Hummels-Abidal/Alba
Xavi-Busquets-Iniesta
Pedro-Messi-Villa

A good CB like Hummels to replace Puyol and not playing Alves and Alba at the same time should solve the issue of the defense. Having Villa up front provides 2 goalscorers. Maybe use Tello on the right at times to provide 3.

How fast is Hummels?
Any CB we buy must have pace

 

[mikecraig]

I don't want to talk about the club policies here but about Messi I have the same opinion as yours . There is a reason Xavi ,who had most key-passes in Euro12 just like WC10 and Euro08 , has a poor chance creating record at Barca in last 2 years .Who can he put through on goal ? Messi never makes those runs behind defenders and wide forwards are only covering their fullbacks bombing forward .If we look at the goals scored in football from stat point , I am sure a big chunk comes from situations where the CF makes the run to evade his marker . So saying that this present strategy is the most effective is not right IMO . I still believe the Messi as tip of attack strategy was decided not because of existing problems in old systems .There was no structural problem in old style. But also 'false 9' works fine most of the time except crucial war like matches .

I understand
But it just pains me to think how good we would be if our management was half as good as the players