10 - Lionel Messi - v2

[MMKa]

So, two dispossessions+turnovers /game.

That's pretty much different than that earlier unsourced 29 lost possessions in only the last game...

 

[neo_wolf]

Messi is going to have one of his spectacular games, i can feel it.

 

[footyfan]

Dispossession - Being tackled by an opponent without attempting to dribble past them

With Messi most of dispossession happens, when he in the center facing his own goal, and gets a pass when there is people just behind marking him, and who hound the ball off. Which why dispossession statistic isn't really comparable to others, as it's effected on how badly you are marked. Also the passer is in fault here, if he sees Messi being closed on before the pass.

Turnover - Loss of possession due to a mistake/poor control

In turnover, you are much better possession of the ball, usually facing the opposition goal, and trying to take players on. It's much more comparable as people can back from it more easily. Messi still faces more defenders in turnovers than anybody else, but it's still the statistic to follow.

I wouldn't be so sure of that. Just remember it's one person sitting behind a computer counting an occurrence. His subjective opinion might be slightly different to yours. Also the would also be errors that naturally happen when humans do repetitive tasks

 

[jiopi]

I wouldn't be so sure of that. Just remember it's one person sitting behind a computer counting an occurrence. His subjective opinion might be slightly different to yours. Also the would also be errors that naturally happen when humans do repetitive tasks

Sure about what? In this kind of statistics there can be human error's, but they average out with everyone, so it doesn't matter anyway.

 

[tariqo]

can't blame him if he didn't play well because of the injury but i want to see what alexis gonna show his fanboys ^_^

 

[footyfan]

Sure about what? In this kind of statistics there can be human error's, but they average out with everyone, so it doesn't matter anyway.

Sure about the situations you described based on which dispossession and turnovers would be counted

No there will be statistical biases, the person who is covering Iniesta for example might not think the same way a person who covers Messi. It doesn't average out because the same people are covering the same players every week. There's no way for us to find out, but it does exist.

The numbers are also so small that even 1 or 2 turnovers missed could make a huge difference.

Also, turnover is defined quite vaguely which leaves a lot to the interpretation of the person counting. What about the times when a player is very clearly attempting to go past an opposing player but loses the ball? That's neither a turnover nor a dispossession...

 

[footyfan]

So, two dispossessions+turnovers /game.

That's pretty much different than that earlier unsourced 29 lost possessions in only the last game...

The last game was a CL game while the stats of 2 per game is for league only.

According to whoscored, Messi had 4 dispossessions + 2 turnovers against Milan.

And this doesn't include Messi's lost possessions due to passing through traffic, although it is sort of represented in the low pass completion rate

 

[footyfan]

Not quite. There's a subtle difference.

To dispossess means to take the ball away from a player. There is no indication of which team recovers it.
A turnover means a player has been dispossessed and the opposing team recovers the ball and possession

This is probably incorrect. Simple math tells us so.

You're saying a turnover definitely implies a dispossession, while a dispossession might not always imply a turnover.

This means that dispossession stats must always be higher than turnover stats, but a quick look at Messi's stats that jiopi posted shows is that this not always so.

What's probably true is that a dispossession implies a player had been tackled, i.e the opposing player gets a successful tackle stat to his name. While a player doesn't get tackled to get a turnover stat, he merely needs to cede possession through a mistake or a bad touch.

 

[Ender]

This is probably incorrect. Simple math tells us so.

You're saying a turnover definitely implies a dispossession, while a dispossession might not always imply a turnover.

This means that dispossession stats must always be higher than turnover stats, but a quick look at Messi's stats that jiopi posted shows is that this not always so.

What's probably true is that a dispossession implies a player had been tackled, i.e the opposing player gets a successful tackle stat to his name. While a player doesn't get tackled to get a turnover stat, he merely needs to cede possession through a mistake or a bad touch.

Again, each term is completely subjective. I was using the strict semantic definitions, as opposed to any particular statistician's--such as Opta.

The only thing I think we all can agree on are that certain stats, i.e. turnover and dispossession, will differ greatly regardless. Best to not look too much into these numbers, and simply use them merely as cursory guidelines for performance.

 

[karthik]

If Leo can pull yet another stunning performance, we will have a scintillating night to remember

 

[numero]

If Leo can pull yet another stunning performance, we will have a scintillating night to remember

Time to start a different "dependencia" movement from tomorrow

 

[jiopi]

Sure about the situations you described based on which dispossession and turnovers would be counted

No there will be statistical biases, the person who is covering Iniesta for example might not think the same way a person who covers Messi. It doesn't average out because the same people are covering the same players every week. There's no way for us to find out, but it does exist.

The numbers are also so small that even 1 or 2 turnovers missed could make a huge difference.

Also, turnover is defined quite vaguely which leaves a lot to the interpretation of the person counting. What about the times when a player is very clearly attempting to go past an opposing player but loses the ball? That's neither a turnover nor a dispossession...

Yeah, I'm sure about that,

OPTA is respected company, and they probably have two people looking the same things to iron out mistakes etc. Which can also be used to actually confirm their workers competence, honesty, and integrity of their data.

Using excuses like statistical bias in this case is unbelievably far-fetched and naive.

 

[footyfan]

Yeah, I'm sure about that,

OPTA is respected company, and they probably have two people looking the same things to iron out mistakes etc. Which can also be used to actually confirm their workers competence, honesty, and integrity of their data.

Using excuses like statistical bias in this case is unbelievably far-fetched and naive.

Lol it's neither far fetched nor naive. There was a YouTube video where they showed optas work area and methodology in an interview. I can't find it right now.

Why don't you focus on Messi tomorrow, like you probably always do, and count his dispossessions and turnovers. Then compare it to the flawless Opta stats..

You also ignored the last para, about the situation where it's neither a dispossession nor a turnover. What does opta do with those?

 

[jiopi]

Lol it's neither far fetched nor naive. There was a YouTube video where they showed optas work area and methodology in an interview. I can't find it right now.

Why don't you focus on Messi tomorrow, like you probably always do, and count his dispossessions and turnovers. Then compare it to the flawless Opta stats..

You also ignored the last para, about the situation where it's neither a dispossession nor a turnover. What does opta do with those?

I always compare them, because that's what I do, and I've not seen anything wrong in them, nor do I expect to see anything wrong in them. Holler me when you have an example.

 

[DonAK]

The day someone betters Messi's stats in dispossession and turnovers will be the day all hell breaks loose for Jiopi lol.