10 - Lionel Messi - v2
- Thread starter Barcaman
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(in a game) a loss of possession of the ball to the opposing team.
Elite-BkD
New member
Yeah, I'd like to see some sources and criteria for this..doesn't look quite right although his bad giveaways I've taken issue with seem to have dropped off a good deal compared to the first few weeks of the season.
He is right. Those stats are from whoscored.com.
Other prominent attackers:
Ribery 1.5 turnovers per game
Ozil 2.2 turnovers per game
Ronaldo 1.6 turnovers per game
Neymar 2 turnovers per game
Heck, our own Xavi and Iniesta (players who are seen to "never" lose the ball) are at 0.6 and 1.1 turnovers/game respectively.
The thing with Messi is that he has started to be judged on Maradona levels, which is fair enough I guess considering how good he is these days.
Oh, the source is here: http://www.whoscored.com/Teams/65
Scroll down to "Barcelona squad" and click on the "offensive" tab
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Elite-BkD
New member
According to that site ( and I still would like to know how they come up with those numbers) Messi has 0.6 turnovers per game (Liga & CL combined) which is the same as Iniesta, and Messi is dispossessed 1.9 times per game, compared to 0.6 for Iniesta. Xavi is at 0.8 and 0.9 for those two stats.
Also according to that site, Messi completes about 84% of 46 passes per game, compared to 92% of 72 and 93% if 96 for Iniesta and Xavi respectively. I don't know what an incomplete pass is if it's not a turnover but whatever. Either way, trying to paint a picture of Messi as the best in terms of keeping possession based on those stats is going to be quite difficult.
Luftstalag14
Culé de Celestial Empire
I suppose this refers to losing the possession of the ball without being intervened by an opposing player whereas "Dispossession" means the posession was lost thanks to the actions of an opposing player? Did I get that right?
And I suppose most of Messi's lost balls that we saw fall under the "Disposession" category?
Luftstalag14
Culé de Celestial Empire
I think that's relatively easy to understand. Most of Messi's passes are those that are given to an attacking player within or near the penalty box which have the tendency to be dispossessed and intercepted since there is a much higher density of opposing players within the penalty box; while many of Xavi's and Iniesta's passes include those that are passed to another midfielder in the midfield, or even back passes to our defenders. Naturally they will have more passes and higher % of completed passes than Messi.
Ender
New member
Not quite. There's a subtle difference.
To dispossess means to take the ball away from a player. There is no indication of which team recovers it.
A turnover means a player has been dispossessed and the opposing team recovers the ball and possession.
Consider the following scenario: Madrid currently has possession of the ball. While Benzema dribbles into their attacking third, Busi makes a successful slide tackle. If Benzema or any other Madrid player manages to get the ball back shortly after, Benzema was only dispossessed. No turnover was forced. However, if Busi or any other Barça player manages to recover the ball, Busi both dispossessed Benzema and forced a turnover.
Does that help?
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Luftstalag14
Culé de Celestial Empire
Yes, but what is the time frame allowed to distinguish a dispossession from a turnover? One minute? How does one define "shortly after"?
In the example you mentioned, Busi dispossessed the ball from Benzema, let's say he then passed the ball to Xavi who then gave the ball to Messi, and then Messi was dispossessed and the ball was lost. In that case it is still a turnover?
Sorry my brain is a little slow right now.
Ender
New member
There is no set time frame. That's where you will find differences in statistics--it's entirely up to the person keeping track.Yes, but what is the time frame allowed to distinguish a dispossession from a turnover? One minute?
In the example you mentioned, Busi dispossessed the ball from Benzema, let's say he then passed the ball to Xavi who then gave the ball to Messi, and then Messi was dispossessed and the ball was lost. In that case it is still a turnover?
Sorry my brain is a little slow right now.
In your example, I believe there would be one, maybe two turnovers. Busi passing to Xavi would for sure mark the first. You don't specify what happens after Messi is dispossessed, so I can't say with certainty that it's a turnover or not.
No worries. These discrepancies are a common cause for controversy in all sports.
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Luftstalag14
Culé de Celestial Empire
Thanks man, that was very helpful.
Regardless, it is good that both Messi's turnover and dispossession stats are going down.
footyfan
Calma, calma
Turnover is loss of possession due to poor control/mistake according to whoscored. Which is different from an incomplete pass.
However, whoscored also defines dispossession as being tackled without attempting to dribble past the player (I don't understand how anybody can tell whether Messi is trying to dribble a player or not) - I personally would always add the dispossession stat to the turnover stat to determine how good a player has been at keeping the ball.
Cule4life
The Culest
This. Messi having only 0.29 turnovers makes no sense. It should be much higher as he cedes possession much more than that
J
jiopi
Guest
Dispossession - Being tackled by an opponent without attempting to dribble past them
With Messi most of dispossession happens, when he in the center facing his own goal, and gets a pass when there is people just behind marking him, and who hound the ball off. Which why dispossession statistic isn't really comparable to others, as it's effected on how badly you are marked. Also the passer is in fault here, if he sees Messi being closed on before the pass.
Turnover - Loss of possession due to a mistake/poor control
In turnover, you are much better possession of the ball, usually facing the opposition goal, and trying to take players on. It's much more comparable as people can back from it more easily. Messi still faces more defenders in turnovers than anybody else, but it's still the statistic to follow.
With Messi most of dispossession happens, when he in the center facing his own goal, and gets a pass when there is people just behind marking him, and who hound the ball off. Which why dispossession statistic isn't really comparable to others, as it's effected on how badly you are marked. Also the passer is in fault here, if he sees Messi being closed on before the pass.
Turnover - Loss of possession due to a mistake/poor control
In turnover, you are much better possession of the ball, usually facing the opposition goal, and trying to take players on. It's much more comparable as people can back from it more easily. Messi still faces more defenders in turnovers than anybody else, but it's still the statistic to follow.
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