10 - Lionel Messi - v3

[Sumlit]

No. This is exactly the kind of thinking that leads nowhere. What we need is to learn how to use the players we have, and make adjustments and improvements where necessary, because even with our player problems, we still have one of the best squads in Europe. Other clubs would kill to have the players we have. Excluding our thin defense, we're all set.

EDIT: OK, this is badly put together... we're not "all set", but my point is that transfers in are not the main thing we need to take care of. They're exactly not the bottom line. They're the additional improvement.

Finding how to use what you've got is all fine and dandy, but you have to have good raw materials to begin with. This team is seriously lacking in game changing talent, and if people don't realize this by now, then they are not looking hard enough.

Transfers are indeed the bottom line right this very second because not even Guardiola could, IMHO, get much more out of this team as it currently stands. After you get the players, maybe even as you get them, then the focus on the person in charge is to get the best out of them and play them in a scheme that suits their abilities. But that can only happen after you've acquired the talent.

That bench is depleted and lacking quality. Xavi is on the twilight of his career. Dani Alves is clearly diminished. Your backup keeper is Pinto, nuff said. Mascherano has been a CB starter for over 2 years. Pedro and Alexis are lacking. Cesc is an inconsistent player. The list goes on.

And other clubs have dozens?

Not dozens no, but they have 4-5. Barca used to have more. The last UCL season, the climax of Pep's Barca, Barcelona had Messi, Iniesta, Xavi, Alves and Villa as clear game-changing talents. On top of that, they were backed up by consistent and reliable players that allowed them to do their jobs with freedom. Puyol, Busi, Abidal.

Now?

Game-chaning? Xavi and Alves have diminished. Villa is gone and Neymar is still a little maturing away from giving the same impact, both mentally and physically.
Support? Busi has had an erratic season, no doubt unaided by the state of flux of the entire backline, not to mention the entire team. Aside from him, Pique is your greatest support. No ideal.

The focus must be adding new talent, first and foremost. That doesn't mean you forget the tactical side however.

 

[Sumlit]

@Sumlit Nah, I'm agreeing with Stric here, it is the system that is at fault. We don't have to go more than one season back to find the same players giving us performances at a completely different level of than what they are doing now.

Luis Enrique and Celta managed to beat Real Madrid 2-0 tonight, and they have a squad that is MILES behind ours in terms of quality, and meanwhile we had yet another miserable and confused game with Martinos system - this time walking away goalless, and without ever really looking dangerous, against a team that is placed 14th in the league. If this standard of play was to continue next season, would we even be in the top four at the end of it? Because I sure don't think so...

Our squad is one of the best in Europe. The way it is used is probably the worst in Europe in terms of what level the squad is capable of, and what level they are delivering.

People have short memories. Tito's Barca showed the same signs of individual deterioration by key players. The team achieved what they did in La Liga mainly off the back of Messi who bailed the team out of poor games constantly. In the UCL again, the struggles were magnified, and Leo again bailed the team until he broke.

This is not something that happened just now. The deterioration of the talent on this team has been coming for over 3 years now. Since Pep's last season this team has been in need of revamping.

 

[Stric]

Well you're right about the need to improve some positions like the RB, CB, etc., but that's hardly bringing in game changing talents. And now back to that issue, did we not buy Neymar just last season? Exactly because Villa wasn't what he used to be... Surely we need some improvements, but that's not going to make a difference without a gigantic shift in the teams psyche. They're lacking effort and motivation, which to me is the biggest part of all our problems right now.

 

[Sumlit]

Well you're right about the need to improve some positions like the RB, CB, etc., but that's hardly bringing in game changing talents. And now back to that issue, did we not buy Neymar just last season? Exactly because Villa wasn't what he used to be... Surely we need some improvements, but that's not going to make a difference without a gigantic shift in the teams psyche. They're lacking effort and motivation, which to me is the biggest part of all our problems right now.

My opinion of the issue, they need to revamp the entire right side of the team. CB, RB, CM, RW. CM and RW with game changing quality talent. RB preferably with a defensive option to switch the attacking option to LB Alba.

What you wrote though, it's true they're lacking effort and motivation, but effort and motivation can only take you so far. Take Alexis, no other player gives better effort, yet his limitations are constantly his undoings.

As for Neymar, that's a headache on its own. For me an unnecessary luxury that proved too expensive and too problematic. However, he is here, and he has talent without a doubt. He needs maturation both mentally and physically, he'll get there shortly, hopefully.

 

[Kohe321]

People have short memories. Tito's Barca showed the same signs of individual deterioration by key players. The team achieved what they did in La Liga mainly off the back of Messi who bailed the team out of poor games constantly. In the UCL again, the struggles were magnified, and Leo again bailed the team until he broke.

This is not something that happened just now. The deterioration of the talent on this team has been coming for over 3 years now. Since Pep's last season this team has been in need of revamping.

I disagree. I remember the games from last season very well, and it was completely different to the clueless nonsense we're seing now. We actually won games against this type of opposition weekly without much issue, and it wasn't just Messi who was responsible, just because he was the one putting in the goals at the end of the attacks. Sure, the system then wasn't perfect by any means either, it certainly had it's flaws and shortcomings that got more and more obvious as the season wore on, but it had an identity that they were comfortable with and subsequently it worked.

The latter half of the season, and the CL campaign, needs to be seen in light of Titos sickness. This obviously affected the players greatly, and for Tito it's not hard to imagine that he didn't have the energy to analyze the opponent, create tactics for it and then motivate his players on a daily basis in training to be ready to face top competition in the CL, when he was so weak. The first half of the season was pretty great, and it wasn't just down to Messi, even though we remember him best for being the finisher of most our attacks. He would never have scored 91 goals in 2012 under this current system, that is 100% certain.

 

[Stric]

What you wrote though, it's true they're lacking effort and motivation, but effort and motivation can only take you so far. Take Alexis, no other player gives better effort, yet his limitations are constantly his undoings.

As for Neymar, that's a headache on its own. For me an unnecessary luxury that proved too expensive and too problematic. However, he is here, and he has talent without a doubt. He needs maturation both mentally and physically, he'll get there shortly, hopefully.

I was thinking more in terms of collective effort. When the entire team is motivated and making efforts, you can get very far. Look at Atletico, or last season's Borussia Dortmund. Both of these teams have squads significantly "weaker" than ours, yet they managed quite a bit. Most Atletico players wouldn't make Barca's starting 11 based on who they are on paper or whatever. Yet with strong motivation and effort, and great coaching, they're double title contenders. In two of the most prestigious competitions in Europe.

Regarding Neymar, I'm not even one of his strong supporters here, but I mention him with regard to your idea of getting game changing talents to replace our deteriorating players... because, as far as acquiring game changing talents goes, I don't think we can do much better than replacing Villa with Neymar, for example. Exactly who do you have in mind? This seems to be the problem...

EDIT:

BTW I agree, I was just thinking about this earlier today, basically about how weird it is that all Barca problems and future improvements are on the right. The entire right side needs replacing.

 

[Sumlit]

I disagree. I remember the games from last season very well, and it was completely different to the clueless nonsense we're seing now. We actually won games against this type of opposition weekly without much issue, and it wasn't just Messi who was responsible, just because he was the one putting in the goals at the end of the attacks. Sure, the system then wasn't perfect by any means either, it certainly had it's flaws and shortcomings that got more and more obvious as the season wore on, but it had an identity that they were comfortable with and subsequently it worked.

The latter half of the season, and the CL campaign, needs to be seen in light of Titos sickness. This obviously affected the players greatly, and for Tito it's not hard to imagine that he didn't have the energy to analyze the opponent, create tactics for it and then motivate his players on a daily basis in training to be ready to face top competition in the CL, when he was so weak. The first half of the season was pretty great, and it wasn't just down to Messi, even though we remember him best for being the finisher of most our attacks. He would never have scored 91 goals in 2012 under this current system, that is 100% certain.

I'm not disputing the system and the need to return to it. The system works, and when played right by players in form and with talent, it does work against any type of defensive tactic.

However the system has been showing cracks since Pep's last year, and not because it has been found out, but because the players have deteriorated. The players on this team as it currently stands, cannot play the same system and have it work as flawlessly and efficiently as it did in the heyday. They just can't. Xavi can't do the same. There's no Abidal to keep defensive integrity. There's no Puyol. There's no prime Alves. There are no Villas, no Eto'os, no Henrys. Busi needs a proper backup to preserve his fitness.

You can return to the system, but without new talent it won't be as effective.

 

[KingMessi]

I'm not disputing the system and the need to return to it. The system works, and when played right by players in form and with talent, it does work against any type of defensive tactic.

However the system has been showing cracks since Pep's last year, and not because it has been found out, but because the players have deteriorated. The players on this team as it currently stands, cannot play the same system and have it work as flawlessly and efficiently as it did in the heyday. They just can't. Xavi can't do the same. There's no Abidal to keep defensive integrity. There's no Puyol. There's no prime Alves. There are no Villas, no Eto'os, no Henrys. Busi needs a proper backup to preserve his fitness.

You can return to the system, but without new talent it won't be as effective.

This so much this!!! And the recent coaches, have turned their backs on La Masia, too afraid to bring new talent from the academy into the team. Young blood from the academy ensures that the team does not get complacent. But of course that means nothing if the coach is unwilling to bench a star name in favor of a more worthy youngster. That should be one of the primary issues that Lucho should fix next season.

 

[Stric]

This so much this!!! And the recent coaches, have turned their backs on La Masia, too afraid to bring new talent from the academy into the team. Young blood from the academy ensures that the team does not get complacent. But of course that means nothing if the coach is unwilling to bench a star name in favor of a more worthy youngster. That should be one of the primary issues that Lucho should fix next season.

Yes yes yes. Many people are overlooking this.

Just look at Bartra. The guy is so eager to prove himself that he gives it 120% every minute he gets. That's another dimension of giving youngsters shots. Sometimes you even get better quality, but almost all the time you get greater effort. And as I mentioned before, they don't just show up with a first team contract already being phenomenal players. You need to give them a shot and every once in a while you'll be rewarded for it and a new star will be born. Imagine if Pep hadn't done that with Busquets.

 

[KingMessi]

That's why if we sell Alexis, we should not buy a star winger. If we do buy Reus/Suarez, it will only ensure the end of Adama and Deulofeu's Barca careers. Instead we should go for a striker who can play wide if needed. Someone in the mold of what Villa was for us. The removal of Alexis of course will mean that we'd need to lock down the right flank defensively, and Montoya, I think, could do that better than current Alves.

 

[Sumlit]

I was thinking more in terms of collective effort. When the entire team is motivated and making efforts, you can get very far. Look at Atletico, or last season's Borussia Dortmund. Both of these teams have squads significantly "weaker" than ours, yet they managed quite a bit. Most Atletico players wouldn't make Barca's starting 11 based on who they are on paper or whatever. Yet with strong motivation and effort, and great coaching, they're double title contenders. In two of the most prestigious competitions in Europe.

Regarding Neymar, I'm not even one of his strong supporters here, but I mention him with regard to your idea of getting game changing talents to replace our deteriorating players... because, as far as acquiring game changing talents goes, I don't think we can do much better than replacing Villa with Neymar, for example. Exactly who do you have in mind? This seems to be the problem...

EDIT:

BTW I agree, I was just thinking about this earlier today, basically about how weird it is that all Barca problems and future improvements are on the right. The entire right side needs replacing.

Yeah effort and motivation are needed, I won't argue with you on that. Though those teams you mentioned have other things that Barcelona lack. Youth in the case of Dortmund, they have to be young to support that style of play, and even then, their style is unsustainable for long stretches. And physicality in the case of Atletico.
Barcelona is an aging roster and not a very physical one.

I agree that Neymar will be that playmaking talent to replace Villa, but IMO he is not there yet. He needs maturing to do. His lack of metal fortitude and physical strength needs improving so he can become consistent. Right now you see his playmaking in spurts. But even that is enough to see his quality.

 

[Sumlit]

Yes yes yes. Many people are overlooking this.

Just look at Bartra. The guy is so eager to prove himself that he gives it 120% every minute he gets. That's another dimension of giving youngsters shots. Sometimes you even get better quality, but almost all the time you get greater effort. And as I mentioned before, they don't just show up with a first team contract already being phenomenal players. You need to give them a shot and every once in a while you'll be rewarded for it and a new star will be born. Imagine if Pep hadn't done that with Busquets.

I agree with this. On top of that their freshness and youthful agility keeps the team playing faster and with more energy.

That's why if we sell Alexis, we should not buy a star winger. If we do buy Reus/Suarez, it will only ensure the end of Adama and Deulofeu's Barca careers. Instead we should go for a striker who can play wide if needed. Someone in the mold of what Villa was for us. The removal of Alexis of course will mean that we'd need to lock down the right flank defensively, and Montoya, I think, could do that better than current Alves.

I would still get an upgrade world class player for the RW. Keep in mind the team will also lose Tello this summer. Also, to thrust a 18-19 year into the responsibility of starting RW for Barcelona is not a great idea for the club, and probably a little too much pressure for a youngster.

IMO upgrade the RW, promote Adama to the first team and give him actual minutes. Deulofeu needs to be loaned out into a Spanish squad that will give him a starting spot so he can play every day. His Everton stint did not go great and IMO Adama has leapfrogged him a little.

 

[NotInHere]

damn couldn't watch the match since I was out, thought the team was gonna really try their hardest to win, particularly Messi

guess not. Sad

 

[Vapor]

This forum truly baffles me.

I mean Pedro looked like a 3rd division player out there. Alexis, yeah he had great work rate, but he was as much of a scoring threat as I was sitting on my couch. Iniesta did not shine. Cesc was giving away passes left and right. Alves spraying useless crosses every time he touched the ball. Adriano did nothing but a close shot.

Yet, the most tightly marked player on the entire field was the one who provided the highest scoring threat and is the player receiving the brunt of the criticism.

Just befuddles me.

This, this this. Did no one even watch the game?

Messi was the only one doing ANYTHING of ANY effectiveness and importance in the first half (just about). Unfortunately the rest of his teammates are woefully incompetent (wingers/fellow "attackers" especially) and, as is to be expected, after an entire half of nearly carrying the team and still not being able to be effective, frustration probably sets in.

To blame Messi today is, to me, ludicrous. He looked miles ahead the best player on our team today from what I saw. He has no help, he is attacking with no help and quadruple coverage. The team doesn't flow as a unit, the peices don't gel, their is no coheision, and so Messi can't really shine. He is the GOAT, but it's still not reasonable to expect him to a dribble an entire bus or group of 4 defenders and score every time.

This shit really is ridiculous IMO.

 

[Pepe Silvia]

I would say Alexis, Bartra and Dani were better than Messi, but I agree Messi wasn't terrible. He had some nice runs, passes, and shots that were blocked. The problem is he looks fatigued beyond belief, and stands around when he should be hustling to win the ball, play defense from the front, and move off the ball, but he did none of that and hasn't for some time. He has got to be ill or saving himself for wc and if that's the case I would lose a bit of respect for him. I think once the season comes to a close we will have some answers about Messi's state. One thing is for sure, we will have big changes ahead.