10 - Lionel Messi - v3

[Peerless]

How do you guys feel about what Valdano said regarding Messi? He pretty much said he's lost some pace, and that he can no longer unbalance the opponents in the final third as effectively as he used too.

Honestly, I agree with that and I think Messi knows it too. He asked for a striker in the summer. And for a player who in the past 4 years has made all our strikers move to the wing seemed odd, but now it makes a lot of sense.

He's changed as a player and he knows it. He doesn't have the pace to go solo anymore and that's a big reason why he struggled a fair bit last season playing as a F9. He didn't have enough space and with his decline physically it made it even more difficult for him. So having Neymar and Suarez playing centrally and closer to him, is probably something Messi asked for and I can totally see why.

So far offensively its been working great. We just need to find a defensive shape where we defend with 11 and not 7. It'll be interesting if Suarez and Neymar are willing to shield the FB's while defending and play as strikers while attacking. Our pressing was destroyed multiple times against Madrid, because as soon as Madrid passed the ball to the FB's Suarez and Neymar were still in the middle and as soon as they closed down Madrid's FB's the ball was already gone.

And that's a big reason why I'm not a fan of the 4-3-1-2. Not only did none of our forwards track back, when Madrid had the ball, our pressing was very disjointed as well.

 

[Flavia]

Happy halloween!

 

[DennyCrane]

How do you guys feel about what Valdano said regarding Messi? He pretty much said he's lost some pace, and that he can no longer unbalance the opponents in the final third as effectively as he used too.

Even if Valdano is right which I don't know, it only tightens the problem of him not getting past defenders anymore like he used to, but it does not cause it. The problem is lack of space to run into. Unlike CR for example, whose dribbling is meant to beat the opponent directly or Busquets, whose dribbling is purely evasive, Messi's dribbling relies on space to run into.

First off, Messi's dribbling is Gambeta, skill and deceit. He provokes positioning flaws and utilizes them. If the ball is lead close to the foot, he can move into an open space the defender can't cover. If this open space doesn't exist, he runs directly at the opponent to keep him bound and then tries to send him into the wrong direction with a body feint.

Since this is difficult, he often tries to only hinder the opponent of effectively chasing him into the playable space. He watches the body balance of the defender, which in the best case is on the far end of the open space, and then uses his acceleration to run past him and get himself between the ball and the opponent. Then, the defender is beaten since he can only hassle around from behind or just foul him. Because of this peculiar dribbling style, it often seems as if he just slides past opponents.


Now, every team worth it's salt knows how to defend him. Almost none bar a handful of defenders are foolish anough anymore to come alone at him and try to strip him off the ball. Class teams defend against him as a collective. He isn't attacked but contained and escorted into dead space, mostly towards the touchline, which is why I'm totally opposed to putting him on the wing again where he would have even less usable space than he has now. If you go back and watch nearly every match we played against Simeone's Atletico, you can see this contain-and-escort strategy in action.

The same by the way goes for Iniesta, who is a differrent kind of dribbler, but is defended against in the same way.

 

[DonAndres]

Even if Valdano is right which I don't know, it only tightens the problem of him not getting past defenders anymore like he used to, but it does not cause it. The problem is lack of space to run into. Unlike CR for example, whose dribbling is meant to beat the opponent directly or Busquets, whose dribbling is purely evasive, Messi's dribbling relies on space to run into.

First off, Messi's dribbling is Gambeta, skill and deceit. He provokes positioning flaws and utilizes them. If the ball is lead close to the foot, he can move into an open space the defender can't cover. If this open space doesn't exist, he runs directly at the opponent to keep him bound and then tries to send him into the wrong direction with a body feint.

Since this is difficult, he often tries to only hinder the opponent of effectively chasing him into the playable space. He watches the body balance of the defender, which in the best case is on the far end of the open space, and then uses his acceleration to run past him and get himself between the ball and the opponent. Then, the defender is beaten since he can only hassle around from behind or just foul him. Because of this peculiar dribbling style, it often seems as if he just slides past opponents.


Now, every team worth it's salt knows how to defend him. Almost none bar a handful of defenders are foolish anough anymore to come alone at him and try to strip him off the ball. Class teams defend against him as a collective. He isn't attacked but contained and escorted into dead space, mostly towards the touchline, which is why I'm totally opposed to putting him on the wing again where he would have even less usable space than he has now. If you go back and watch nearly every match we played against Simeone's Atletico, you can see this contain-and-escort strategy in action.

The same by the way goes for Iniesta, who is a differrent kind of dribbler, but is defended against in the same way.

Great analysis yet again. One of the factors that helps inhibit Messi's dribbling ability is the fact that our transition play is just piss poor in this static system that we're playing. There's little of the quick passing between the lines with purpose that lets us attack at destabilized opponents in numbers (4v3 or 3v3 rather than 3v6) before they've compressed space. Essentially, we do half of the bus parking job for them.

Usually whenever Messi gets the ball these days, our play is decelerating in the face of a wall of defenders rather than picking up pace. It's always very difficult for any player to start a move from a static scenario through an inventive dribble. The best dribbles almost always happen in times of transition and capitalize on the opponent changing their collective shape or retreating. Nowadays our ball movement is so slow that we're never creating chances out of those transition windows of opportunity.

One of the games this season that best showcases Messi's dribbling is against Villarreal. All of his deadliest dribbles in this match were as a result of Villarreal adjusting collectively in transition or retreating as a result of the play speeding up.

See 1:34, 2:20, and 7:18 of the video for the best examples.

Or look at his goal against Eibar for another example of this:

Both teams spent a lot of time defending with an organized structure but any time we kicked up the velocity of our attack, Messi's killer dribbling made the difference.

 

[DinhoR10]

Anyone who thinks messi has lost pace need only watch him tear Hummels a new one in the world cup final.

 

[BerkeleyBernie]

Even if Valdano is right which I don't know, it only tightens the problem of him not getting past defenders anymore like he used to, but it does not cause it. The problem is lack of space to run into. Unlike CR for example, whose dribbling is meant to beat the opponent directly or Busquets, whose dribbling is purely evasive, Messi's dribbling relies on space to run into.

First off, Messi's dribbling is Gambeta, skill and deceit. He provokes positioning flaws and utilizes them. If the ball is lead close to the foot, he can move into an open space the defender can't cover. If this open space doesn't exist, he runs directly at the opponent to keep him bound and then tries to send him into the wrong direction with a body feint.

Since this is difficult, he often tries to only hinder the opponent of effectively chasing him into the playable space. He watches the body balance of the defender, which in the best case is on the far end of the open space, and then uses his acceleration to run past him and get himself between the ball and the opponent. Then, the defender is beaten since he can only hassle around from behind or just foul him. Because of this peculiar dribbling style, it often seems as if he just slides past opponents.


Now, every team worth it's salt knows how to defend him. Almost none bar a handful of defenders are foolish anough anymore to come alone at him and try to strip him off the ball. Class teams defend against him as a collective. He isn't attacked but contained and escorted into dead space, mostly towards the touchline, which is why I'm totally opposed to putting him on the wing again where he would have even less usable space than he has now. If you go back and watch nearly every match we played against Simeone's Atletico, you can see this contain-and-escort strategy in action.

The same by the way goes for Iniesta, who is a differrent kind of dribbler, but is defended against in the same way.

Good analysis. DonAndres points out one kind of opportunity (transition play), but the key is simply a disrupted defense. It doesn't matter if it is in transition, or achieved in another way. The best organized defenses playing behind the ball are certainly difficult, but not impossible to disrupt. Simply shooting at goal and getting a deflection gets players scrambling out of position. I'm sure Suarez is going to create more havoc than we've seen until now (like that great chip for Pique's goal he made out of nothing). More sharp rapid play around the box, a few more shots taken rather than trying to always looking for the final carpet pass in tight space, Suarez' creativity- all of these are going to create more holes for Messi to work through.

 

[Flavia]

DennyCrane and DonAndres, great posts :beer2:

I hope Messi surpasses Zarra tomorrow, and get that behind him already. Noticed how the discussion of many goals Zarra has ended, all of a sudden, after the game at the bernaleo? Pathetic rm media


Offtopic, DonAndres... But DonAspas scored a hattrick in the cdr, did you see it?

 

[DonAndres]

Offtopic, DonAndres... But DonAspas scored a hattrick in the cdr, did you see it?

The Aspas debacle has plagued me like a persistent herpes. But yes, I did see the hat-trick.

 

[linetty]

 

[doublehh03]

Ok, now Messi is just having bad luck. Teams are just making ridiculous saves against him. Teams are playing out of their minds.

 

[Stric]

Ok, now Messi is just having bad luck. Teams are just making ridiculous saves against him. Teams are playing out of their minds.

Yeah, this is beyond imagination. It's like the universe doesn't want him to reach that record.

 

[CatalinR10]

how was he ?

 

[doublehh03]

Yeah, this is beyond imagination. It's like the universe doesn't want him to reach that record.

It's not just this game. The Casillas save, the 3 games prior to that Messi should have had a hat trick in all of them if not for some ridiculous saves.

Hopefully it will come around.

 

[Crixus]

he's playing well so far but still unlucky .

 

[dakt]

He's good. I don't worry about him, but our suck ass midfield.