10 - Lionel Messi - v4

[lessthanjake]

Do you know how many crucial penalties has cristiano missed?
4, 2 in cl semis, 1 in final and 1 vs valencia couple weeks ago, when the race for the title was still on.
Do you know how many important penalties messi has missed?
Only 1 against chelsea in cl semis but he was just unlucky and hit the bar, he didn't sky it.
So no, cristiano having a marginally better percentage than messi in penalties doesn't mean he's better if he misses the important ones.

I was responding to a question of whether the difference in PK goals comes down to conversion rate. The fact is that, to some degree, it does. Ronaldo makes a higher percent of his penalties than Messi does.

You might think Ronaldo has choked more on penalties in big moments, so perhaps Messi is a "better PK taker" to you for that reason. But when I said "better" I merely meant a higher percent scored.

Anyways, I'm not really sure about the choking in big moments thing. If you define the Valencia miss as a big miss, then any La Liga penalty miss in a close match could count, since every match counts equally, even if it seems like the later ones are more important. So, for instance, if that Valencia match had been the first game of the season, it would matter the same as it did coming near the very end. And Messi's miss against Chelsea pretty unambiguously lost the tie for us. I don't remember the exact scenarios Ronaldo's CL misses were in, but I'm almost certain his misses didn't actually lose his team a CL semifinal tie or a final (I know Man U won the shootout that Ronaldo missed one in). I'm not saying Messi is a choke artist. In fact, it bears mentioning that a disproportionate amount of his misses were in the CdR. But I don't think Ronaldo is one either. They've both missed the occasional important penalty, as you'd expect from players who take lots of important penalties and don't make 100% of their penalties.

 

[Vlom]

That's all theoratical and opinions mate, that's why I was asking about the stats of penalty taken and penalty goals, that's the only way to know if conversion rate is really the reason Messi has less or not, I don't think that's the case, at all.

 

[lessthanjake]

That's all theoratical and opinions mate, that's why I was asking about the stats of penalty taken and penalty goals, that's the only way to know if conversion rate is really the reason Messi has less or not, I don't think that's the case, at all.

Huh? Ronaldo DEFINITELY has a better conversion rate. It sounds like you are saying you don't think that's the case, but it unambiguously is. It's not enough of an advantage to fully account for how many more penalty goals Ronaldo has, but it does account for a bit of the difference. I was merely explaining what I thought accounted for the rest of the difference. And yes, what I said is all theoretical. But I think it makes a lot more sense than the conspiratorial "RM bribes the refs" kind of explanations (though obviously what happened in Italy some years ago indicates that bribing refs is not exactly unthinkable).

 

[LordLichtenstein]

That's all theoratical and opinions mate, that's why I was asking about the stats of penalty taken and penalty goals, that's the only way to know if conversion rate is really the reason Messi has less or not, I don't think that's the case, at all.

The reason Messi has less is basically down to him being 2½ years younger. In 2½ years time he might have as many as Ronaldo -or at the very least close.


No, I don't have that stat :/

 

[Ekul]

The Valencia one was a big miss, because they needed to win to stay in the title race, essentially. Therefore, there was pressure. A win at the start of the season might also be worth 3 points, but there isn't the same pressure and you have 37 games to make up for it.

 

[Vlom]

Huh? Ronaldo DEFINITELY has a better conversion rate. It sounds like you are saying you don't think that's the case, but it unambiguously is. It's not enough of an advantage to fully account for how many more penalty goals Ronaldo has, but it does account for a bit of the difference. I was merely explaining what I thought accounted for the rest of the difference. And yes, what I said is all theoretical. But I think it makes a lot more sense than the conspiratorial "RM bribes the refs" kind of explanations (though obviously what happened in Italy some years ago indicates that bribing refs is not exactly unthinkable).

Please show stats, you're basing your theory on the fact that Messi misses a lot of pk, that's not the case, that's why this year was so shocking when he missed 3 or 4.

No, I don't have that stat :/

No worries, I'll try to find it, but the fact that Messi already has more goals with 2yrs less without pk says a lot

 

[lessthanjake]

The Valencia one was a big miss, because they needed to win to stay in the title race, essentially. Therefore, there was pressure. A win at the start of the season might also be worth 3 points, but there isn't the same pressure and you have 37 games to make up for it.

Fair enough. But the point remains that both players have had big misses. And that is to be expected, given that they take tons of important penalties, and will never make 100% of them.

 

[Morten]

I believe 17% of Ronaldos goals in his career are penalties, Messi with 14%. I cant remember where i read that, might be true, might nor be. Anyway, its worth a mention that Valencias gk is pretty much the best penalty stopper in the league, if not in Europe alltogether.

 

[lessthanjake]

First off, stop faking being a Messi fan lol at this point your cover is blown.

Second, please show stats, you're basing your theory on the fact that Messi misses a lot of pk, that's not the case, that's why this year was so shocking when he missed 3 or 4.

Haha, look at my post history, particularly past posts in Messi threads. I'm very clearly a Messi fan. But being a Messi fan does not require me to believe something that is directly contradicted by the facts. I don't need to wrongly believe Messi's PK conversion rate is as high as Ronaldo's to know that Messi is the better player. Ronaldo fans are the ones that actually need to believe illogical/incorrect things in order to conclude that their man is better.

I already told you the stats. But I'll provide links if you'd like:

http://metro.co.uk/2015/02/26/stati...st-penalty-conversion-rate-in-europe-5080674/

As of this February, Ronaldo had made 78 of 90 penalty kicks in his career. That was 87%. I believe he has since missed a couple (and surely made a few as well), so that number is probably down to like 85% or so.

And in late February, this Twitter posted Messi's penalty conversion stats:

https://twitter.com/MessiStats

At that point, the numbers were 46 of 59 converted for Barcelona, and 10 of 12 converted for Argentina. That is an overall rate of 56 converted out of 71, or just under 79%. That is above average (which I believe is 76%), but it is below Ronaldo.

 

[raskolnikov]

Yeah Ronaldo is easily a better penalty taker than Messi, might not be as clutch in crucial games though.

By the way, you guys notice how somehow every discussion Always leads to a Messi vs Ronaldo debate...

 

[footyfan]

Good posts, [MENTION=8123]lessthanjake[/MENTION].

Yeah Ronaldo is easily a better penalty taker than Messi, might not be as clutch in crucial games though.

By the way, you guys notice how somehow every discussion Always leads to a Messi vs Ronaldo debate...

Because Messi fanboys have to bring Ronaldo into the debate and save the day.

 

[Vlom]

Haha, look at my post history, particularly past posts in Messi threads. I'm very clearly a Messi fan. But being a Messi fan does not require me to believe something that is directly contradicted by the facts. I don't need to wrongly believe Messi's PK conversion rate is as high as Ronaldo's to know that Messi is the better player. Ronaldo fans are the ones that actually need to believe illogical/incorrect things in order to conclude that their man is better.

I already told you the stats. But I'll provide links if you'd like:

http://metro.co.uk/2015/02/26/stati...st-penalty-conversion-rate-in-europe-5080674/

As of this February, Ronaldo had made 78 of 90 penalty kicks in his career. That was 87%. I believe he has since missed a couple (and surely made a few as well), so that number is probably down to like 85% or so.

And in late February, this Twitter posted Messi's penalty conversion stats:

https://twitter.com/MessiStats

At that point, the numbers were 46 of 59 converted for Barcelona, and 10 of 12 converted for Argentina. That is an overall rate of 56 converted out of 71, or just under 79%. That is above average (which I believe is 76%), but it is below Ronaldo.

Okey, so Messi has a 79% conversion rate, if he had 90 penalties taken he would have scored 61 penalty goals right ? so 15 more goals in total.

Right now in total :

CR = 488 goals for club + selection
Messi = 457 goals for club + selection.

So, my point all along was, if Messi had the same penalties taken as CR, even with his lower cr% > 457 + 15 = 472 goals.

He would be pretty close to CR in total goals with (742 - 578) = 164 games less


PS : the penalty stats are approx since it's from february, but it was just to explain my initial argument.

 

[raskolnikov]

Good posts, [MENTION=8123]lessthanjake[/MENTION].



Because Messi fanboys have to bring Ronaldo into the debate and save the day.

Along with Ronaldo fans ready to defend of course

But its not just here, whenever either is mentioned anywhere on the internet it results in a Messi vs Ronaldo debate, for years now is like this.
I think they will be forever linked to each other in legacy, thats the result of the media driven biggest rivalry between two people in the history of team sports.
Does make you want to avoid the comment section on Messi/Ronaldo headlines at times though.

 

[footyfan]

Along with Ronaldo fans ready to defend of course

But its not just here, whenever either is mentioned anywhere on the internet it results in a Messi vs Ronaldo debate, for years now is like this.
I think they will be forever linked to each other in legacy, thats the result of the media driven biggest rivalry between two people in the history of team sports.
Does make you want to avoid the comment section on Messi/Ronaldo headlines at times though.

True, it's annoying as hell. Mostly because everybody knows Messi is better than Ronaldo, so why the discussions every time? I do it just to troll whenever I see stupid arguments. But I am contributing to the problem

 

[MaxY]

Well Flavia brought it on for no reason. Me saying that Messi's goal doesn't deserve first place somehow made him bring up MVP the award from 2013 . And it's obvious since most of the goals on that list are better and not to mention that both Messi and James have plenty of goals that are better than that particular one.