10 - Lionel Messi - v4

[ceefoo]

I don't know what I am doing wrong, but I can't seem to find the 53 figure? :S

Yeah it's a bit tricky...

- Click History
- Detailed
- Select Category GOALS
- Sub Category SITUATIONS
- Accumulation TOTAL

 

[DonAK]

interestingly, both savage and neville also think that the pl is the best league in the world, so they are at least consistent in their incompetence. on the other hand, this review made me appreciate lineker even more.

Gary Neville? Really? Every time I've watched him he has been very critical of PL and the quality of the teams and praised La Liga.

Edit: I see it's the dumb brother Phil.

 

[LordLichtenstein]

Yeah it's a bit tricky...

- Click History
- Detailed
- Select Category GOALS
- Sub Category SITUATIONS
- Accumulation TOTAL

Awesome, thanks

 

[LordLichtenstein]

Okay, so Ronaldo have 74 penalty goals, while Messi "only" have 49.

Goals (without penalties)

Messi - 363
Ronaldo - 362


bear in mind, this is only at club level.


*I wasn't aware that Messi had overtaken him, if we excl. penalties

 

[Luftstalag14]

 

[Vlom]

Okay, so Ronaldo have 74 penalty goals, while Messi "only" have 49.

Goals (without penalties)

Messi - 363
Ronaldo - 362


bear in mind, this is only at club level.


*I wasn't aware that Messi had overtaken him, if we excl. penalties

Do you have the stats about pk takens / pk goals ? People always use that shitty argument that "you still have to score them" but i'm sure CR has taken more than him, the difference is not down to conversion rate.

 

[King Leo]

The Messi Clan

 

[DonAK]

The Messi Clan

 

[lessthanjake]

But they aren't close, goal scoring perhaps, but Ronaldo would never give a performance like Messi did in the CDR. He may have scored two goals, yes, but little else.

I agree that Messi is clearly better than Ronaldo. The fact that he scores just as much, while also doing a lot of other stuff Ronaldo does not do makes that quite obvious to me. But it's hard to be MILES ahead of someone who scores 50-60 goals a season. Ronaldo is one of the greatest players in the sport's history (personally I'd put him comfortably in the top 10 of all time). So I think it's not outrageous for someone to say he's not WAY better. In my mind, Messi is the greatest player of all time, and I still don't think he's WAY better than Ronaldo.

What IS outrageous are the arguments people use to try to put Ronaldo ahead of Messi. It's always illogical things like "Messi is a better dribbler, but Ronaldo is better in the air and at free kicks, so he is better in more categories, and therefore better." Not only is something like dribbling far more important, but the categories people put Ronaldo ahead in are all subsumed within the broader category of goalscoring. And even if Ronaldo is better at things like penalties, weak footed shots, long shots, free kicks, headers, etc. he does not score more goals than Messi. So it never makes any sense to act like Ronaldo has an advantage in tons of different categories, when they are all really just part of a broader category he is not superior in. The fact is that Ronaldo is not superior in that broader category, while clearly being inferior in essentially every other category, so he is obviously worse. So yes, THOSE arguments are outrageous. But I think it improperly downplays Ronaldo's quality to say that Messi is miles ahead of Ronaldo. No one in history has been miles ahead of Ronaldo.

 

[raskolnikov]

Do you have the stats about pk takens / pk goals ? People always use that shitty argument that "you still have to score them" but i'm sure CR has taken more than him, the difference is not down to conversion rate.

The difference is due to Madrid refs, we all know it. I dont know their cl penalty stats but im willing to bet the difference aint that big.

 

[lessthanjake]

Do you have the stats about pk takens / pk goals ? People always use that shitty argument that "you still have to score them" but i'm sure CR has taken more than him, the difference is not down to conversion rate.

I'm a huge Messi fan, but it would be delusional to act like Ronaldo is not a better penalty taker. In February of this year, I believe Messi had taken 59 penalties for Barcelona and missed 13 of them. That's only a 78% conversion rate. Back then, I believe Ronaldo had made 87% of his penalties (78 of 90) in his career. I think he has missed a couple since then, so perhaps he is closer to 85% now. But he is definitely a better penalty taker than Messi.

But, of course, that difference is not exactly enormous. The bigger effect is the fact that RM tend to get more penalties than Barcelona (though it should be noted that that is not true every year, just most years). But I think the fact that RM gets more penalties has something to do with their style of play. You are more likely to get a penalty called on a swift counterattack where few defenders are back. Fair or not, refs are less likely to give a penalty for a foul in the box when the defense is completely set. First, the ref is simply less likely to have an angle to see those fouls, since there will be lots of bodies in the box. Second, it feels less like a cynical denial of a goalscoring opportunity when lots of other defenders are around. Obviously, this indicates that Real Madrid's style lends itself to getting penalties far more than Barcelona's style does. This helps inflate Ronaldo's goalscoring numbers, of course. But, conversely, one could easily argue that Barcelona's style also can be an advantage to Messi's goalscoring. So I think this stuff kind of evens out. We can't be too upset about Ronaldo reaping the advantages of his team's style, when Messi surely reaps the benefits of Barcelona's style in other ways.

 

[Vegeta]

But why even keep on saying Cristiano Ronaldo's name in this thread?
The inferiority complex is on him and Madrid fans, while when you have a 100% fit Messi in you squad you don't even care about irrelevant players.

This is for morons you run into at school, amongst your friends, in the pub, etc.

 

[6 Ballons for Messi]

I'm a huge Messi fan, but it would be delusional to act like Ronaldo is not a better penalty taker. In February of this year, I believe Messi had taken 59 penalties for Barcelona and missed 13 of them. That's only a 78% conversion rate. Back then, I believe Ronaldo had made 87% of his penalties (78 of 90) in his career. I think he has missed a couple since then, so perhaps he is closer to 85% now. But he is definitely a better penalty taker than Messi.

But, of course, that difference is not exactly enormous. The bigger effect is the fact that RM tend to get more penalties than Barcelona (though it should be noted that that is not true every year, just most years). But I think the fact that RM gets more penalties has something to do with their style of play. You are more likely to get a penalty called on a swift counterattack where few defenders are back. Fair or not, refs are less likely to give a penalty for a foul in the box when the defense is completely set. First, the ref is simply less likely to have an angle to see those fouls, since there will be lots of bodies in the box. Second, it feels less like a cynical denial of a goalscoring opportunity when lots of other defenders are around. Obviously, this indicates that Real Madrid's style lends itself to getting penalties far more than Barcelona's style does. This helps inflate Ronaldo's goalscoring numbers, of course. But, conversely, one could easily argue that Barcelona's style also can be an advantage to Messi's goalscoring. So I think this stuff kind of evens out. We can't be too upset about Ronaldo reaping the advantages of his team's style, when Messi surely reaps the benefits of Barcelona's style in other ways.

Do you know how many crucial penalties has cristiano missed?
4, 2 in cl semis, 1 in final and 1 vs valencia couple weeks ago, when the race for the title was still on.
Do you know how many important penalties messi has missed?
Only 1 against chelsea in cl semis but he was just unlucky and hit the bar, he didn't sky it.
So no, cristiano having a marginally better percentage than messi in penalties doesn't mean he's better if he misses the important ones.

 

[Vlom]

I'm a huge Messi fan, but it would be delusional to act like Ronaldo is not a better penalty taker. In February of this year, I believe Messi had taken 59 penalties for Barcelona and missed 13 of them. That's only a 78% conversion rate. Back then, I believe Ronaldo had made 87% of his penalties (78 of 90) in his career. I think he has missed a couple since then, so perhaps he is closer to 85% now. But he is definitely a better penalty taker than Messi.

But, of course, that difference is not exactly enormous. The bigger effect is the fact that RM tend to get more penalties than Barcelona (though it should be noted that that is not true every year, just most years). But I think the fact that RM gets more penalties has something to do with their style of play. You are more likely to get a penalty called on a swift counterattack where few defenders are back. Fair or not, refs are less likely to give a penalty for a foul in the box when the defense is completely set. First, the ref is simply less likely to have an angle to see those fouls, since there will be lots of bodies in the box. Second, it feels less like a cynical denial of a goalscoring opportunity when lots of other defenders are around. Obviously, this indicates that Real Madrid's style lends itself to getting penalties far more than Barcelona's style does. This helps inflate Ronaldo's goalscoring numbers, of course. But, conversely, one could easily argue that Barcelona's style also can be an advantage to Messi's goalscoring. So I think this stuff kind of evens out. We can't be too upset about Ronaldo reaping the advantages of his team's style, when Messi surely reaps the benefits of Barcelona's style in other ways.

Come on mate; not the "RM get penalties because they attack more" argument .. we attack just as much if not more, you just need to watch a video of CR's dives to see where the difference comes from.

Sure Neymar dives a lot too (less than before), but since he has a diver's fame BUT is not protected by RM and media propaganda we don't get as many as RM, simple as that.

 

[lessthanjake]

Come on mate; not the "RM get penalties because they attack more" argument .. we attack just as much if not more, you just need to watch a video of CR's dives to see where the difference comes from.

Sure Neymar dives a lot too (less than before), but since he has a diver's fame BUT is not protected by RM and media propaganda we don't get as many as RM, simple as that.

It's not about attacking more. We obviously attack just as much or more than they do.

It's about the nature of those attacks. We do not attack as directly as Madrid. Because of this, our attacks are typically against defenses who have filled the box with tons of defenders. When the box is full of players, the ref is simply less likely to be able to see a foul. And when there are lots of defenders around, refs are less likely to blow the whistle because a foul won't seem like as much of a cynical denial of a goalscoring opportunity (technically that does not matter in the rules, but refs definitely think about that when deciding whether to call a penalty).