10 - Lionel Messi - v5

[jairzinho]

Definitely don't agree. Messi's only goal of the tournament came from a Banega pass and a run from Leo like a striker.

Today he was supposed to play like a false 9 but he just played like he always plays at Barca, like a 10 behind a striker. The opponents' penalty area was always empty because Messi was behind and as soon as Aguero came on both Messi and Argentina looked better.

He doesn't have to become like Ronaldo who nowadays is absouletly terrible on the ball and lives only by his off the ball movement but he needs to stop being so static and make more runs. The midfielders obviously can't spot all of them but sometimes he will receive a good ball like it happened with Banega.

I'm not sure what Sampaoli had in mind but playing Messi as a false 9 was a big mistake.
He should have stuck with the same system that they used against Nigeria.
Higuain/Aguero on top and Messi playing just behind or just off the striker.

 

[DonAndres]

Can't get worse.....

Messi gets older and the supporting cast gets worse?

It absolutely can get worse. We all thought that Tata was as bad as it gets, then Bauza took that to a whole new level. Sampaoli was supposed to be the solution, and yet he somehow managed to be worse than all of them with his lineups and tactics. And he's not resigning.

With Argentina it's safer to assume that there really is no rock bottom, and it can always get worse.

 

[footyfan]

Definitely don't agree. Messi's only goal of the tournament came from a Banega pass and a run from Leo like a striker.

Today he was supposed to play like a false 9 but he just played like he always plays at Barca, like a 10 behind a striker. The opponents' penalty area was always empty because Messi was behind and as soon as Aguero came on both Messi and Argentina looked better.

He doesn't have to become like Ronaldo who nowadays is absouletly terrible on the ball and lives only by his off the ball movement but he needs to stop being so static and make more runs. The midfielders obviously can't spot all of them but sometimes he will receive a good ball like it happened with Banega.

The Banega pass happened because Nigeria completely pushed up, which was rarely the case with France today. If Argentina did not concede against so France so quickly after going 2-1 up, we may have seen more of such passes and movement.

He played how a false 9 is supposed to play. The differences with a false 9 that works are a legendary midfield like Xavi-Iniesta-Busquets that can advance the ball forward until the final third against any opposition in front of them, and that are not afraid to attempt a short, risky forward pass to Messi's feet. And actual forwards like Villa and Pedro that are not afraid to come inside to link-up with Messi and the midfielders, and that do not hesitate to make runs into the box.

Messi is physically much worse than he was in his prime, and although many on this forum kept saying how he's at his greatest in the past couple of years, I fully disagree despite whatever carrying of Barca he has done. He was a better player between 2008-2012 - he was faster, more agile, more fearless, and a better dribbler. These outweigh any improvements he's made in his free kicks or long balls. He was already an all-time great passer in 11/12.

Also, can we take a moment again to remind ourselves that it's the coach who is supposed to look at how his players play and develop a system that is best for it? Even if we assume Messi has gone through a physical decline and is unable or unwilling to make darting runs, can't the coach see this and develop an attack that plans around this? I get the frustration with Messi not making as many runs, but once you accept that Messi is not as great a player as he once was, surely its time to create a system around it? He's the greatest passer in the world and can pick out runs like nobody else can. Why not instruct your players to make diagonal runs as much as they can? This worked in 14/15, and will keep working as long as Barca/Argentina have a 14/15 Neymar/Ronaldo/Villa type forward. FFS it worked with Aguero today, and Aguero rarely makes those runs himself.

Messi and his teams are so hampered by coaches and sporting directors at his club and NT.

 

[Raketa10]

Argentina will rise up again. People were saying Brazil is doomed 4 years ago and today they have great team once again. I believe that in 4 years Argentina will have much stronger team. Problem is that Copa is next year in Brazil so they really need to change something ASAP if they want to properly compete for that tournament. First step is to find a proper coach and fire that clown Sampaoli. Next year Copa is Messi’s last chance to win that tournament.

 

[Vilarrubi]

Argentina will rise up again. People were saying Brazil is doomed 4 years ago and today they have great team once again. I believe that in 4 years Argentina will have much stronger team. Problem is that Copa is next year in Brazil so they really need to change something ASAP if they want to properly compete for that tournament. First step is to find a proper coach and fire that clown Sampaoli. Next year Copa is Messi’s last chance to win that tournament.

+1 People being way too dramatic.

 

[Stoichkov1]

The Banega pass happened because Nigeria completely pushed up, which was rarely the case with France today. If Argentina did not concede against so France so quickly after going 2-1 up, we may have seen more of such passes and movement.

He played how a false 9 is supposed to play. The differences with a false 9 that works are a legendary midfield like Xavi-Iniesta-Busquets that can advance the ball forward until the final third against any opposition in front of them, and that are not afraid to attempt a short, risky forward pass to Messi's feet. And actual forwards like Villa and Pedro that are not afraid to come inside to link-up with Messi and the midfielders, and that do not hesitate to make runs into the box.

Messi is physically much worse than he was in his prime, and although many on this forum kept saying how he's at his greatest in the past couple of years, I fully disagree despite whatever carrying of Barca he has done. He was a better player between 2008-2012 - he was faster, more agile, more fearless, and a better dribbler. These outweigh any improvements he's made in his free kicks or long balls. He was already an all-time great passer in 11/12.

Also, can we take a moment again to remind ourselves that it's the coach who is supposed to look at how his players play and develop a system that is best for it? Even if we assume Messi has gone through a physical decline and is unable or unwilling to make darting runs, can't the coach see this and develop an attack that plans around this? I get the frustration with Messi not making as many runs, but once you accept that Messi is not as great a player as he once was, surely its time to create a system around it? He's the greatest passer in the world and can pick out runs like nobody else can. Why not instruct your players to make diagonal runs as much as they can? This worked in 14/15, and will keep working as long as Barca/Argentina have a 14/15 Neymar/Ronaldo/Villa type forward. FFS it worked with Aguero today, and Aguero rarely makes those runs himself.

Messi and his teams are so hampered by coaches and sporting directors at his club and NT.

I agree almost with all your points, except that he was as good as today at passing in 2011/12. I think he became a much better passer as he became older but physically as you said he became much worse and lost a lot of acceleration.

The real question is why Sampaoli and Messi agreed to let him play false 9 while it was obvious it wouldn't work.

A lot of people here think that dropping Suarez and playing Messi false 9 would be a good idea with Rakitic in midfield who can only make backward passes and with Messi's low stamina and walking. It would be an utter disaster.

If Suarez doesn't improve his overall play we should sell him but we absolutely need a striker who plays in front of Leo.

 

[Mitchell1978]

good luck to win copa america next year in Brazil with this crap of team

hadn't even taught about that, if Brazil doesn't win the WC they'll be double motivated for that tournament

 

[Raketa10]

Apparently there will be another Copa in 2020 in USA so he will have 2 more chances to win it.

The 2019 Copa America will be the final edition played on odd years. Starting in 2020, the tournament will be held in the same year as similar tournaments such as the UEFA European Championship. On 16 March 2018, it was announced that from 2020, a new competition between CONMEBOL and CONCACAF will be played.

 

[FCB50]

do people even care much about Copa America? It's like a Copa Del Rey compared to the World Cup

 

[aaron101]

do people even care much about Copa America? It's like a Copa Del Rey compared to the World Cup

Of course it's not World Cup lol. Copa America = Euro.

 

[ronniecro]

he should retire from NT once and for all. there's no point for him to continue anymore. no matter what happens he will always be singled out for any failure,like now,again. fans and media are shitting on him while basically ignoring everyone else.

 

[Givenchy]

he should retire from NT once and for all. there's no point for him to continue anymore. no matter what happens he will always be singled out for any failure,like now,again. fans and media are shitting on him while basically ignoring everyone else.

agree. this exit wasn't as catastrophic as it could of been for Argentina. its best for all parties to move on, Messi can prolong his Barca career and Argentina can start a new era

 

[eaman]

All this crap about Messi not moving enough. There was no space to make runs coz France sat deeper than Nigeria did for his goal. Ronaldo didn't make any of these runs tonight did he. And Messi knows exactly what he is doing in holding his position on the pitch and not running into other people's spaces. I saw today there was a time his teammate was looking to pass to him 5 yards away but Messi knew it was not the right pass as he would have been swallowed by players pretty quickly so he pointed to play it out the wing kinda like he did a few times with semedo this season. The other players are just not on his level of understanding the game

 

[Question17]

Copa America = Euro.

Not true. The copa has inconsistent intervals and has even been held in back to back years. The euro is rarer and follows a rigid 4 year pattern.

 

[FCB50]

I don't see much point in him playing at next two Copa Americas. He'll get tons of stick if they don't win (which is very likely) and even the praise for winning it would be very minimal after this World Cup flop. It would be like our CDR win vs Sevilla after the Roma disaster