10 - Lionel Messi - v5

[kilian]

I've seen both Pele and Maradona a lot alive, but Messi is light-years ahead of both of them.
.

Interesting opinion. Can I ask you to argument why you think that he is light years ahead of both of them?

I watched Maradona live, talked alot about him with other people that watched him too, but also Pele and for example Cruijff. Most of them agree that judging by pure footballing quality there is very little to differentiate between the four of them and to pick one as the greatest is possible only by subjective favouritism. Maybe five of them if you put Beckenbauer in the pot too.

For example, my father watched all of them, but for him Cruijff is the best. Although he will never say that he is much better than Messi, Pele or Maradona, just that he is more special.

I would probably say Messi because he is one of the main reasons for the golden era of a club that I love, but I can`t say that he is that much better than Maradona, maybe even not better at all. Pele I only know from other people`s opinions, so I can`t say much.

 

[Potroh]

Interesting opinion. Can I ask you to argument why you think that he is light years ahead of both of them?

Sure...
- Pele was very very skillful but at that time the game was so much slower, that Messi would almost win a WC alone while playing against defenders who stand still.
- Pele did nice things in twice or three times slower than Messi does the same. Pele wasn't a particularly fast player.

- Maradona was less skillful, but he was more aggressive, which is nice but I personally don't consider it to be a unique quality.
- Cruijff was great world class player but way behind all of them. He used to have very bad games but more importantly he was better with his head than feet.

Messi is an extremely skillful player, but there are others like that. The major difference is that somehow Messi is capable of doing everything so rapidly, that the defenders are simply unable to follow his speed. Messi is able to imbibe the entire game, positions of all players, and Neither of the above mentioned great players were able to do that.

 

[Yannik]

I'm 24 and I feel like a baby on this forum right now

 

[Horatio]

I'm 24 and I feel like a baby on this forum right now

You are young either way. Stop crying.

 

[DonAK]

I'm 24 and I feel like a baby on this forum right now

And that's the good. We're the future generation going to rule the World. Not all these oldies

 

[kilian]

Sure...
- Pele was very very skillful but at that time the game was so much slower, that Messi would almost win a WC alone while playing against defenders who stand still.
- Pele did nice things in twice or three times slower than Messi does the same. Pele wasn't a particularly fast player.

- Maradona was less skillful, but he was more aggressive, which is nice but I personally don't consider it to be a unique quality.
- Cruijff was great world class player but way behind all of them. He used to have very bad games but more importantly he was better with his head than feet.

Messi is an extremely skillful player, but there are others like that. The major difference is that somehow Messi is capable of doing everything so rapidly, that the defenders are simply unable to follow his speed. Messi is able to imbibe the entire game, positions of all players, and Neither of the above mentioned great players were able to do that.

About Pele :

Yes, football was slower back then and the players were slower, but it was a different time with pretty basic training methods in comparison with what players have today. Absolutely everyone that watched Pele live said the same thing to me - physically he was a beast and that very much complimented his tehnical capabilites. So I ask you this - don`t you think that that "beast" would be much faster and more physically powerful today, with modern training methods? I am pretty sure that he would be. If he could do the things with ball much faster than he did at that time, we will never know. If I`m not mistaken you were a pro player, so I think you can agree with me that football training today is at a much higher level than it was back then. It would be interesting to hear about football training back then.

About Maradona:

Okay, I will say that it was really a long time ago, so my memory is rather bleak, but I remember Maradona as an extremely skillful player, who could destroy teams in a number ways. He had his problems on and off the pitch, but he was a magician. If he was technically weaker than Messi, it is by a very small margin. I can`t agree that Messi is much better than him in that regard. Messi is a monster, he can do everything with the ball and his dribbles are out of this world. But the same thing could be said for Maradona. Cruijff too.

Also, as far as I recall Maradona could do exactly what you say about Messi - influence the whole game. Cruijff especially. Pele I don`t know.

About Cruijff I will just say that I don`t agree with you that he is way behind Messi, Maradona and Pele. I didn`t watch him live, but I did watch some games online and read and listened to people who did watch him. Pretty much everyone is in agreement that he is up there with those three.

Although we somewhat disagree, it`s an interesting discussion.

 

[El Barcelona]

Beautiful fk, again. And good move by piqué

 

[Horatio]

[MENTION=21136]Potroh[/MENTION]

You offer great insight. Great posts.

 

[gatsu]

Sure...
- Pele was very very skillful but at that time the game was so much slower, that Messi would almost win a WC alone while playing against defenders who stand still.
- Pele did nice things in twice or three times slower than Messi does the same. Pele wasn't a particularly fast player.

- Maradona was less skillful, but he was more aggressive, which is nice but I personally don't consider it to be a unique quality.
- Cruijff was great world class player but way behind all of them. He used to have very bad games but more importantly he was better with his head than feet.

Messi is an extremely skillful player, but there are others like that. The major difference is that somehow Messi is capable of doing everything so rapidly, that the defenders are simply unable to follow his speed. Messi is able to imbibe the entire game, positions of all players, and Neither of the above mentioned great players were able to do that.

100% agree.

What makes Messi unique is not his footballing skills or technique but the speed in which he can integrate informations (players positions, the ball, distances...)and respond in an optimal way almost instantly .

Nobody in football history has been able to think that fast. For that he is also for me light years ahead of everybody.

 

[dakt]

Sure...
- Pele was very very skillful but at that time the game was so much slower, that Messi would almost win a WC alone while playing against defenders who stand still.
- Pele did nice things in twice or three times slower than Messi does the same. Pele wasn't a particularly fast player.

- Maradona was less skillful, but he was more aggressive, which is nice but I personally don't consider it to be a unique quality.
- Cruijff was great world class player but way behind all of them. He used to have very bad games but more importantly he was better with his head than feet.

Messi is an extremely skillful player, but there are others like that. The major difference is that somehow Messi is capable of doing everything so rapidly, that the defenders are simply unable to follow his speed. Messi is able to imbibe the entire game, positions of all players, and Neither of the above mentioned great players were able to do that.

Consistency wise, who is/was better?

 

[Potroh]

Nobody in football history has been able to think that fast. For that he is also for me light years ahead of everybody.

Seems we absolutely do agree.
When watching Messi it often comes to my mind that he plays as if he was observing the moves of others in slow motion but reacting in 2x speed.
This is such a unique and unrepeatable skill that I'm certain that hardly anyone will be born with this or will be able to do the same in a few decades...

Don't misunderstand me but this incomparable skill of his reminds me of autistic people, who are able to simultaneously read two books and word by word remember the contents forever...

 

[Chong Li]

[tw]819330694967128064[/tw]

Well said Luis!

Get rid of deadwood like Vidal, Paco, Arda and Gomes and then give Leo what he deserves, you incompetent fools.

 

[Total-Football]

great comment Potroh, but u undermined Maradonna's skill a bit.. i only remember him from his dopped out world cup 1994 but obviously i went back and watched his great years in VHS videos lol the guy seems to be a master technician. the closest player to messi i have even seen. can't say nothing about Pele and cruyf tho i have nothing but youtube and insights like yours for those lol

 

[Potroh]

Absolutely everyone that watched Pele live said the same thing to me - physically he was a beast and that very much complimented his tehnical capabilites. So I ask you this - don`t you think that that "beast" would be much faster and more physically powerful today, with modern training methods? I am pretty sure that he would be.

Well, yes we don't necessarily need to agree on everything...
I think Pele wasn't the most skillful player of his time, he was just an outstandingly great combination of all possible individual capabilities. One could hardly mention anything he wouldn't have been great in or well above average.
At the same time I think that if he would be trained at Santos or Botafogo today, he would be much better physically, would have much more capacitance and counteraction, but would be still a bit slow for today's standards. Players like Messi, Neymar, Marcello, or even Di Maria, etc. have better techniques and speed. Ronaldinho was much better in skills than Pele was...

If I`m not mistaken you were a pro player, so I think you can agree with me that football training today is at a much higher level than it was back then. It would be interesting to hear about football training back then.

Training is on a higher level for sure, but the most important things simply cannot be taught. Outstanding skill can't be taught, those can be practiced and practiced to be used in conjunction with less obvious skills. In my time we were running a lot in training but running with the ball? Way less compared to the today's standards.
Training was very different back then...
- no training the forthcoming day following a game... - only some swimming or sauna (!)
- no gym exercises for the upper body
- very few flexibility exercises for the joints, so folks often got injured when trying to handle a high ball with their feet
- running too often 100m or 60m - full speed - but much less medium-speed runs
- too much 10km runs in slow speed
- half of the players still used to smoke...
I can go on for three pages more...

If he was technically weaker than Messi, it is by a very small margin. I can`t agree that Messi is much better than him in that regard. Messi is a monster, he can do everything with the ball and his dribbles are out of this world. But the same thing could be said for Maradona. Cruijff too.

We disagree here, sorry. Maradona was great but Messi is much better, and better being half as aggressive.

Also, as far as I recall Maradona could do exactly what you say about Messi - influence the whole game. Cruijff especially.

Influencing the game back then - to me subjectively - is something that Beckenbauer or Zico did more. But talking about influence, how about Iniesta?

 

[Horatio]

Players nowadays are naturally more talented.
Even natural lung capacity gets measured and plays a factor in how successful you'll be.