10 - Lionel Messi - v5

[Luftstalag14]

In part, the problem for Messi is that he formed himself as a player playing in the greatest football team ever, with 2 of the best midfielders of all time, and one of the best right backs of all time. So he was kind of used to move less, conserve energy, knowing that the ball would get to him in the right spot, with the right pace, just the way he wanted it and the way the Barca style demanded to happen. Playing with prime Xavi, Alves and Iniesta makes your job so much easier you wouldn't believe. Now he is a position where the service he gets is of way lower quality, the difference is like night and day. Passes being made towards him are struck too hard, either short, either too late, or with the wrong angle, all sorts of passing problems, that he just didn't have at Barcelona. This delay is critical because it allows the opponent to prepare and block him better.

The fact that Messi carried Barca back in the day is the most idiotic idea I've ever heard. He had a lot support. Like really a lot. Now that's gone, and he declined physically (that's clear, he's way slower and less explosive than at his best) it's unsurprising that his performances aren't the same against the big teams. His fans say he's more of a playmaker now, picking passes of genius left and right, but that mostly happens against weaker sides that aren't defensively disciplined. Top sides and hard working teams who put in big defensive displays aren't that impressed by playmaker Messi. They can isolate him and crowd him and force him to play safety passes.

He can get around those issues and continue to be decisive, but in the absence of great service, you basically need to compensate that by being more motivated, working harder off the ball. In short, making himself available more, rather than just assuming that the other players will do their job and will find him with clever passes. Again, he ain't playing with Xavi, Iniesta, Alves, Villa, peak Busquets, Eto'o, Ronaldinho, Henry etc. Solution is to stick to a more advanced position, put in more intense effort and don't try to cover a lot of ground.

I'd move him back on the right, not hugging the line, but playing as a forward coming from the right side in on his left. This Messi that drops deep and acts like a no10 midfielder, a la Pirlo, ain't impressing me.

Agreed with your first paragraph 100% but I thought the second paragraph was quite off-putting. I don't think there are many who said Messi carried the team back in the Guardiola days when we had the prime Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets and Alves etc. Clearly he benefited from playing with great players (who wouldn't?), but to diminish his contributions is silly. I think most of those who said Messi carried the team were referring to the last several years when we had a declining midfield, to the point of abysmal midfield we had sometimes, that Messi had to drop deep and help create, something that he didn't have to do in our prime years.

It is a fact that Messi created a lot of chances in the last several years, there were stats stating that Messi was among the top in Europe in terms of number of chances created, to the point that Messi had been ranked as one of the best playmakers in Europe consecutively in the last several years. Of course you can say most of the chances created were against weaker teams but isn't that the case for all the other playmakers or players who created a lot of chances? You can't use that to dismiss Messi.

Messi's problem other than those that many have stated (stamina, lack of off the ball, mentality, inconsistent effort etc.) is, to me he has become somewhat predictable in his approach to penetrate defense. He either dribbles through or he tries to play one-twos. His dribbling is getting worse as he declines so he can't always dribble through opposing players any more. And he often found that he is not always on the same wave length with his teammates when he wanted to do one twos, especially when he plays for Argentina. The two best players he used to do a lot of one-twos were all gone (Dani Alves and Neymar). So unless he tries different things and approaches he will fail more often than succeed with those two methods.

The rest I agree with.

 

[SeloBarca]

I think Argentina has a better chance against Croatia and Nigeria.
None of them has even half the defensive quality or heart that Iceland has.

 

[Stoichkov1]

Messi's problem other than those that many have stated (stamina, lack of off the ball, mentality, inconsistent effort etc.) is, to me he has become somewhat predictable in his approach to penetrate defense. He either dribbles through or he tries to play one-twos. His dribbling is getting worse as he declines so he can't always dribble through opposing players any more. And he often found that he is not always on the same wave length with his teammates when he wanted to do one twos, especially when he plays for Argentina. The two best players he used to do a lot of one-twos were all gone (Dani Alves and Neymar). So unless he tries different things and approaches he will fail more often than succeed with those two methods.

The rest I agree with.

Well Messi is a midget, so it's obvious that he tries to penetrate defenses with dribbling or one-twos. He can't just wait in the box waiting for crosses for example because he isn't tall enough.

What should he try to do differently in your opinion?

 

[Luftstalag14]

Well Messi is a midget, so it's obvious that he tries to penetrate defenses with dribbling or one-twos. He can't just wait in the box waiting for crosses for example because he isn't tall enough.

What should he try to do differently in your opinion?

As serghei said, make himself more available with more active off the ball running to create space for himself and expect service. Not saying he should not try to dribble and do one twos anymore.

 

[-SG7-]

Think Messi actually played quite good.
He tried to do everything but his teammates are just not capable or making the right runs or open up space for him.
Iceland is as always way underrated though. Furious work 100% of the time as a unit.
I actually bet Iceland to finish second in the group.

This is my sentiments as well. Messi actually did play quite good but iceland were so damn compacted it was next to impossible to break them down. Considering how madrid fails to break down parked busses, I fail to see how ronaldo wouldve scored. He wouldve easily been marked down. Obv the penalty miss was a huge blunder, and i think someone else should take them. But overall he played quite good. And its pathetic to think some people want him gone/to retire. Didnt he score 2 hat tricks in past 2/3 games?

Honeslty looking at the croatia vs nigeria game, if messi was allowed that much open space in the final third during the iceland one we wouldnt be having this discussion/meltdown.

 

[putogusiluz8]

Come back stronger babe.

 

[Barcilliant]

I disagree somewhat regarding the first part. Messi was our most dynamic and consistent forward under Guardiola, he was our most effective and efficient player in winning the ball back and pressing, in fact that was the thing that Madrid fans used to point out when they talked about Messi & Ronaldo, as to how hard Messi worked for the team and wasn’t a selfish player who was a defensive liability, so I don’t buy the fact that he always used to ‘move less, conserve energy’ . Messi had to be decisive for us in the big games because to score for Barcelona means having to play through in a congested small area to create any kind of space. Cristiano would’ve struggled to score any where near the amount of goals that he did for Madrid. Xavi and Iniesta needed Messi just as much as he needed them. In order to get the most out of Messi at this stage of his career, Argentina need someone to get him the ball in the final third. That is when he is most effective, when he collects the ball deep I think that’s a win for the opposing team, Argentina need to find some formation or system where Dybala and Messi can co-exist. The problem will be the balance of the squad defensively, can you have two players whose work-rate isn’t good enough without the ball. Aguero isn’t that great with his running into channels or working defensively either.

Messi just needs to be a penalty box predator at this stage of his career. People expecting Messi to press and work hard off the ball now are dreaming!!

He needs to be in or around the box not near the halfway line.

It's also no coincidence that when Reals midfield became great Ronaldo prospered. Or that when our midfield became shitty Messi has become less decisive especially in big games.

 

[Barcilliant]

The fact is Messi has declined and so has the team. Too many Barca fans are either stuck in 2009 or 2015.

 

[Barcilliant]

This is my sentiments as well. Messi actually did play quite good but iceland were so damn compacted it was next to impossible to break them down. Considering how madrid fails to break down parked busses, I fail to see how ronaldo wouldve scored. He wouldve easily been marked down. Obv the penalty miss was a huge blunder, and i think someone else should take them. But overall he played quite good. And its pathetic to think some people want him gone/to retire. Didnt he score 2 hat tricks in past 2/3 games?

Honeslty looking at the croatia vs nigeria game, if messi was allowed that much open space in the final third during the iceland one we wouldnt be having this discussion/meltdown.

Noone wants him to leave or retire. His role needs to change.

 

[Horatio]

Noone wants him to leave or retire. His role needs to change.

Coach.

 

[Pedro]

He just looked so awkward today every time he was dribbling, with that armband too

 

[Felipetonelo]

A lot of people mentioning what Messi needs to change, here's my contribution after the heat of the game.

Without the ball: too many times he's just standing and waiting for the ball. Before receiving the ball something that he could do is what a lot of players do: a fake run. Usually this gives you space and makes you more unpredictable because the defender doesn't know if you're going to run or stop. This gives him time. In the past Messi would just wait, gets the ball, run and leave the defender behind because he was too fast. Now, he needs to adapt. I'm sure that he's not going to get tired or injured by doing fake runs or something similar.

With the ball: when he has the ball a lot of people mentioned: he gets the ball, holds it, try one-two or dribble from the center/right to the left. At Barca he adds the diagonal pass to Alba. Maybe it's because we watched Messi a thousand times, but we all know that he's going to do the same plays. Teams just park the bus, block one-two and put 3 guys marking Messi to prevent his dribbles.

He needs to bring something new, no need to be something magical, just new. Maybe don't hold the ball every time you gets it, make a quick pass as soon as you get. The defenders are expecting him to receive and hold. Maybe while dribbling he can fake a dribble to the left (what the defender is expecting) then go to his right foot and cross or shoot.

Imagine if I was a defender, I saw Messi in the last 10 years and I know he has some favorite moves. Then my coach wants me to stop Messi of doing his favorite moves and defend with my life. I would focus in these moves probably. What if Messi does something new, something that neither me or my coach was expecting? I would be unsure about what to do next and a defender who thinks too much is a dead defender when facing Messi.

To finish, my whole point it's about doing small things different during a game to make Messi more unpredictable.

 

[MessiCam]

Going to watch the game on the tactical cam now.

 

[TitoTata]

Check him out in the prematch warm up ....
He had a huge strapping on his lower left leg ( knee down to ankle) ..

 

[MTL_Barca]

I still think he is more or less forced to play like that, because of the players around him. At both Argentina and Barca.

Idk if it's his fault, not directly but i feel like coaches and teammates just stop trying because there is the GOAT on the team so everybody expects him to do everything. He still is the best but getting the ball in CM/CAM area and then dribbling past 3-4 players just isn't possible multiple times per game.

No matter where Messi plays the rest of the team should be able to do something with the space they have because Messi is marked by 2-3 players at all times. Messi also shouldn't be forced to drop deep all the time, it should be something he CAN do to get more players in midfield and create chances but not the main gameplan of his teams, it just doesn't work to focus so much on one player no matter how good he is.

Ronaldo doesn't do any of that and that's why it seems to be easier for him. He is a finisher and at times impossible to stop once he gets to the ball but its arguably easier to score than to dribble past 4 players from midfield and then create and finish your chance all alone.

I really don't know what's the problem here. Maybe its coaches taking the easy way. Maybe its Messi who wants to play like that. I still think if someone could build a working midfield that is capable of creating chances and controlling the game without his help and then Messi on top of that he would be seen as the best in the world again in no time. But i have to say it's hard to build that, harder than with Ronaldo. Ronaldo is just a striker, but having Messi pretty much means having only 2 midfielders or only 1 wing or no real CF. I personally think false 9 is the best solution to that but i know having a real nr 9 also has its merit that are lost with Messi there, still think it's worth it tho since i value 3 midfielders + 2 wingers higher.