10 - Lionel Messi - V6

[pregra]

Only reason Cristiano can be more decisive is that he can score a relatively «simple» goal from a cross. Simplest way to score a goal there is. Apart from that he has absolutely nothing on Messi. Besides better coaches (and teammates of course). Look at Argentinas centre backs and compare then with Portugals. Even «worse», look at the full backs. Argentinas FBs have 0% offensive ability. How Tagliafico can play for a attacking team like Ajax is bewildering. Can’t dribble, is slow and have zero combination play. Saravia is just shit all around.

 

[pregra]

Btw Messi was miles better than anyone in the CL this season. To blame him is mental. Compare Messi’s vs Liverpool x2 to CR vs Ajax x2. Miles apart in Messi’s favour.

 

[KingLeo10]

serghei's right to some degree, but he's painting many wrong reasons.

CR7 isn't some gifted, inspiring leader like Puyol or even a Ramos. In the last 4-5 years, he's prioritized the CL and gone above and beyond his normal effort (as it should be). Messi for some reason has only done that in 18/19 out of the last 4-5 seasons. That's just exercising common/good sense.

CR7, because of his physical attributes and off the ball movement (best in the world and in history) is simply better suited to banging in those ugly goals and headers than Messi is, who pretty much only scores aesthetically pleasing goals. As a proof, all of CR7's knockout goals this season (3 v ATM, 2 v Ajax) were either PKs or headers. Sure, he puts out those bangers like versus Juve every now and then but those are not the norm.

CL is about winning, however it takes. Both Messi and Barca are not flexible enough in this regard. Look at how shit Liverpool were in the final but at the end of the day, they have their 6th ahead of Barca and Bayern. Don't even get me started on Madrid's CLs. Only the 2017 one came with a League double. Meanwhile, all 5 of our CLs have been European doubles, meaning we win only when we are overwhelmingly strong and can compensate for any tactical inflexibility.

That's my take on it. Messi is the better, superior player in talent and gameplay but I would also take CR7 in CL KOs. Same as how I would trust RM more in CL KOs than Barca (shouldn't be any disagreement on this one).

 

[abbbs97]

Btw Messi was miles better than anyone in the CL this season. To blame him is mental. Compare Messi’s vs Liverpool x2 to CR vs Ajax x2. Miles apart in Messi’s favour.

Exactly. Messi was the best player in the CL this season. Scored more goals, assists and more all around better performances than the so-called stronger and more fitter Ronaldo. I'd like to see how Ronaldo does with a manager like Valverde and teammates like Rakitic, Gomes and Mathieu.

 

[Arizona Scott]

So then, why did he go out vs Ajax this season?

Or why but in all but one of his CLs, and in the Euro finals, he had no impact, no presence, and other players made the difference?

The narrative spinning based a couple of good bounces, favorable calls, and teammates stepping up. Just read what the best coaches say about Cup runs--lots of factors beyond a manger or individual players control.

The discussion is about CL. Ronaldo is the superior player in the Champions League, no doubt about it imo.

People need to understand why that is. And it's not because of Marcelo, Modric and Ramos lol.

It is because Ronaldo is fitter, stronger, more motivated and more willing to adapt to the requirements of the modern game the way we see them in the CL these days. He works harder and is a leader no doubt. Messi has clearly more talent which he shows every week almost in the league. But the CL is mainly about hunger to win fitness and hard work on the night. Ronaldo owns Messi in areas which are vital in CL.

No the debate wasn't isolated to a single tournament. It was a comparison and discussion of 2 players as footballers. If you what you said is true it should have made more a difference in league titles--the long game where fitness and hunger and team togetherness is so critical versus playing well and shining a few matches in a long season. We all know the league record for them, directly head to head, while on each others direct nemisis club. League titles are where good bounces, favorable draws, luck and inconsistency (effort/excellence) is weeded out. Big contrast to cup competitions, always will be.

 

[Alik]

Everybody is to blame for the humiliations. Obviously. Messi shares some of the blame for sure. You forgot how he ran slightly more than Ter Stegen (lol) vs Atletico a few years ago?

The talent he has doesn't excuse his lack of leadership and his laziness - that's a really big negative to have in a competition where the players usually give everything.

Except that's not applicable to last season where he was one of our best performers in the tie vs Liverpool.

 

[Judoman]

Leadership is not something one can learn or buy. Either you have it or you don t. It shouldn t be a thing if you don t.

All this "Messi is to blame" is utter and total BS. Simple logic really is dying on this planet. The guy has more than 1 goal/assist per game through his entire career. All "Messi is to blame" BS should stop right at this fact.

The people to blame for our lack of CL trophies in the recent years are sitting in the offices. They are supposed to build the team around him and select the right coach to manage the whole thing.

Since Guardiola they failed regularly. Fact.

 

[Mitchell1978]

Crap like this gets tossed around every time someone dares to criticize him.
I fucking love the guy, watched him from teen years to this day and he`s brought us so much joy that we`ll cry as little babies when he decides to retire. But, he is a human being with flaws like every other player and deserves to get criticism for some of it.

And I love the ungratefulness part. The guy is paid 40-50 million euros a year. But we are ungrateful if we want to see more passion from him at times.

When people think he's one of the main reasons of barça not winning the CL after the season he just had then yeah thats ridiculous and ungratefull.

When people bash him for not speaking out publically towards Valverder then yeah thats ridiculous and ungratefull.

This forum is an embarassement at times.

 

[Mitchell1978]

Exactly right. Some people only seem to see the times he doesn't make runs or doesn't press. The reality is and I have seen it plenty of times is he presses plenty of times and makes runs on many occasions both for club and country.

The winning bias or losing bias in (team)sports is massive, when you win some people will only look at the good things a player does and when you don't win some people only focus on the bad or lesser things a player does. Its not an objective way at looking at this but some people here are so obessed with the CL or getting Valverde out they don't see things objectively any more.

 

[Afromaticz]

Alot of u guys obviously care more about Messis personal achievements than this football club so whats the point in even debating this.

 

[eaman]

Alot of u guys obviously care more about Messis personal achievements than this football club so whats the point in even debating this.

Just don't be heavily blaming Messi for not winning the champions league. You can blame the management for things like not playing our best team against liverpool in both legs really or for not buying right in the last few years but you should have no agenda against Messi. Every single team in the world would want him and his energy saving way of playing he uses at times in games

 

[Afromaticz]

Just don't be heavily blaming Messi for not winning the champions league. You can blame the management for things like not playing our best team against liverpool in both legs really or for not buying right in the last few years but you should have no agenda against Messi. Every single team in the world would want him and his energy saving way of playing he uses at times in games

We certainly have bigger problems to worry about at this club but let's not pretend that Messi should be freed from any blame whatsoever.
Messi might be scoring for fun but his overall play and i mean that with the utmost respect has not been that great for a very long time and that's just my opinion.
And i love Messi too and i rate him as the greatest ever but I'm not blind either.

 

[Judoman]

We certainly have bigger problems to worry about at this club but let's not pretend that Messi should be freed from any blame whatsoever.
Messi might be scoring for fun but his overall play and i mean that with the utmost respect has not been that great for a very long time and that's just my opinion.
And i love Messi too and i rate him as the greatest ever but I'm not blind either.

Yeah, your opinion if flawed, but that s ok. Imagine a pyramid representing "blame". Messi is on the bottom, where the least blame is and the management (board and directors) is on the top.

To emphasize his part of the blame doesn t make sense. Considering his contributions to this club over the years it s insane.

 

[eaman]

We certainly have bigger problems to worry about at this club but let's not pretend that Messi should be freed from any blame whatsoever.
Messi might be scoring for fun but his overall play and i mean that with the utmost respect has not been that great for a very long time and that's just my opinion.
And i love Messi too and i rate him as the greatest ever but I'm not blind either.

His overall play last season was up there with his best seasons. Maybe a few less dribbles but that's probably just one of those things due to circumstances in games. Scoring two and creating five clear chances means he pretty much did his job against Liverpool. Poor management decisions(not playing arthur) and other players playing badly were the reason we played below average at the nou camp and lost at anfield

 

[Afromaticz]

Yeah, your opinion if flawed, but that s ok. Imagine a pyramid representing "blame". Messi is on the bottom, where the least blame is and the management (board and directors) is on the top.

To emphasize his part of the blame doesn t make sense. Considering his contributions to this club over the years it s insane.

Dude..no one is emphasising Messi's part in any of this..but we've moaned about the board a million times already no point in rehashing the same ol shit.

Everyone should know by now that our club is run by idiots.. Kool, but why cant we adress some of Messi's flaws as a footballer aswell? And yes u might think that my opinion is flawed but Messi scoring x amount of goals is not gonna hide the fact that his overall play has declined alot over the years