10 - Lionel Messi - V6

[Arizona Scott]

Spot on. Messi is on such a different level that players often, involuntary, just freeze. And Leo himself, by his geniusnes, breaks any tactic we have planned so obviously team-play suffers.

That's why it's good to have those confident superstars to play with him. Suarez with his instinctivenes, or Neymar with his confidence.

That all being said we can't afford to have another man walking up there and our basic problem remains lack of pace.

I agree with this. De Jong and Griezmann should assist with pace and overall defensive cover--and my hunch will not be phased by Messi or the big moments. Want a different manager, but I think we are thinking right in terms of player composition. Slow midfield-not a fit, Coutinho--not a fit, despite some real quality in them.

 

[Alik]

Huh? He was terrible in the return leg. Captain of a team who collapsed like schoolboys.

Yet another CL away game where he and the team crumbled under pressure.

Atletico 0-2, PSG 0-4, Juventus 0-3, Rome 0-3, Liverpool 0-4. Goal difference 0-16. You call that playing good? He was mediocre or terrible in all of those games.

He was the biggest reason we won 3-0 in the first leg in the first place. The tie should have been put to bed.

He wasn't terrible in the return leg either by a long shot.

Blaming Messi for our CL exit last season is nonsensical.

 

[soul24rage]

If EV got his player selection right vs Liverpool, we wouldn't be even having this conversation.

 

[serghei]

Hard to tell what would have or could have happened. The team with Messi got trashed again in CL. Everybody is to blame. Need to find out the reasons and fix them. Started on the wrong foot by not sacking Valverde, a clown Messi publicly supported.

It is a circus. Barto, Valverde and the seniors lack balls and leadership big time.

 

[Judoman]

For me, the Messi camp is in complete denial. The player has some serious workrate and tactical limitations that is making it difficult for us, playing for Messi, to win the CL. It works with some opponents like United, Lyon, last year Chelsea, who are far from elite (probably even Europa League quality to be fair). When the top teams come, he is shut down, sulks, and we get stuffed away. Year, after year, after year.
.

It s not denial, it s priorities and basic logic.

Messi on average covers app. 1 mile less than CR & similar players. Even so, he is the most effective of them all.

Knowing this, your job as a manager/coach is to maximize his output and minimize his weaknesses.

I ask you, does it sound like a good idea to pair him with a guy who runs slightly more than him, but still slightly less than CR, while missing insane amount of chances Messi provides?

Is it a good idea to put slow players behind his back? Slow players who can t even create.

You make comparisons to CR. Delete Messi/CR from their respective teams in the last 5 years. Which teams wins?

It doesn t take a lot of brain power to see, that surrounding Messi with fast/mobile players who can score or/and create is a good idea. You start from here and you end up with trophies.



The thing that doesn t make sense to me is, despite the fact that his production is insane, regardless of your personal standard, we are discussing his flaw-s, instead of huge pile of shit that surrounds him year in year out.

Does it make sense to focus on flaw of the most productive guy? Or is it more logical to focus on bigger problems around him?

 

[Ritchie]

Barca/Messi struggle to scrap it out when things go wrong in CL. Messi other than Chelsea and Inter semi finals has almost always produced the goods at home. Away from home Barca even under Pep struggled in CL.

Under Pep the one big away game Barca produced was Real 2011 and that was all Messi.

 

[MagIX]

Ok, it's finally clear: Messi is THE PROBLEM of Barcelona.
We'd have sold him years ago if we'd figured it out sooner

 

[BarcaOG]

You call it laziness Messi calls it saving energy for the things he does best. Does Ronaldo do the same? Yes. Does salah? Yes

Saving his energy for what? We crashed out of the CL via an away-leg hammering again, for the nth time in Messi's career and lost the cup final.

What's the point of conserving energy if it doesn't pay off when it needs to?

Think seriously and carefully for a moment about what it means to say that Messi is the best ever. It means that no other human who has ever played football professionally has been better. That's a very high standard. How is it that the best ever, the best human being ever to play football professionally, has failed to lead his team across the finishing line in the CL for five years, half a decade, which in football is an eternity, or his national team in four finals?

You can have a bad game and a bad final, maybe even two, where your team fails to perform for whatever reason. You cannot have four. Think about that for a moment. Four finals is at least 360 minutes of football, but in fact more if you include extra time.

How is it possible that the best ever should fail to produce one individual moment of magic in over 360 minutes of the most important football he has ever played? Not one shot that beats the keeper, not one mazy dribble, etc? Add to that the hundreds and hundreds of minutes in away CL matched that Messi has not dealt a killing blow.

If we are seriously talking about the best ever, if that is the standard, well, I don't think Messi passes the test.

 

[ebc_99]

Sorry, but the debate was aimed at the CL, based on the Van Gaal comments, which were pretty much spot on.

I said Ronaldo is the superior player in Champions League. Isn't this the big problem here? The Champions League? Isn't this why we're talking about this season as if it was terrible? Because we failed again big time in the CL?

For me, the Messi camp is in complete denial. The player has some serious work rate and tactical limitations that is making it difficult for us, playing for Messi, to win the CL. It works with some opponents like United, Lyon, last year Chelsea, who are far from elite (probably even Europa League quality to be fair). When the top teams come, he is shut down, sulks, and we get stuffed away. Year, after year, after year.

For me the deal breaker was when he publicly backed Valverde, and said he holds no blame for the new CL fiasco. It means he and the rest of the veterans are part of the problem, along with Valverde, who is the chief idiot in charge.

Champions League is a cup competition, one mistake or one bit of bad luck and you are out, remember 2014? Valdes gets injured, we start Pinto and Diego scores a 1 in 100 shot from outside the area right in to the top corner. What has that got to do with Messi? Or Dzeko out muscling our defenders last year, or Alba having the worst game of his life at Anfield?

Messi did his bit in the semi, his teammates let him down. With Ronaldo, he was fortunate that his teammates did their job when he did his and they also had incredible luck that Barca hasn't had recently, Real should have been knocked out in 2018 by Bayern in the semi but they got lucky, and they got lucky in the final. Ronaldo played like shit and Bale rescued them, how does that make Ronaldo better in the Champions League Than Messi? Ronaldo was poor in 2014 but Ramos saved the day, he didn't play well in the 2016 final either nor the 2009 final. Messi is more of a big game player than Ronaldo, but his teammates at Barca are not as reliable in the big occasions as some of the Real Madrid players.

 

[serghei]

Barca/Messi struggle to scrap it out when things go wrong in CL. Messi other than Chelsea and Inter semi finals has almost always produced the goods at home. Away from home Barca even under Pep struggled in CL.

Under Pep the one big away game Barca produced was Real 2011 and that was all Messi.

All teams struggle in CL away more often than not. Struggling is not the same with being thrown out of orbit with a 0-16 goal average.

With Pep in the 4 years he managed our goal average in the semis away was 4-5. Almost even. The 1-3 with Inter we had terrible refereeing.

 

[messi2140]

Messi can't blamed for anything on the pitch last season. He went above and beyond and carried that bum of a manager almost to a treble. Only thing I feel let down by Messi is how he fully backed Valverde after that Anfield disaster.

You could absolutely make a case for Messi not doing more in previous CL exits but not this year.

 

[ebc_99]

Saving his energy for what? We crashed out of the CL via an away-leg hammering again, for the nth time in Messi's career and lost the cup final.

What's the point of conserving energy if it doesn't pay off when it needs to?

Think seriously and carefully for a moment about what it means to say that Messi is the best ever. It means that no other human who has ever played football professionally has been better. That's a very high standard. How is it that the best ever, the best human being ever to play football professionally, has failed to lead his team across the finishing line in the CL for five years, half a decade, which in football is an eternity, or his national team in four finals?

You can have a bad game and a bad final, maybe even two, where your team fails to perform for whatever reason. You cannot have four. Think about that for a moment. Four finals is at least 360 minutes of football, but in fact more if you include extra time.

How is it possible that the best ever should fail to produce one individual moment of magic in over 360 minutes of the most important football he has ever played? Not one shot that beats the keeper, not one mazy dribble, etc? Add to that the hundreds and hundreds of minutes in away CL matched that Messi has not dealt a killing blow.

If we are seriously talking about the best ever, if that is the standard, well, I don't think Messi passes the test.

Who does pass the test then?

 

[serghei]

Okay, this is turning into Ronaldo vs Messi part 7515436.

 

[BarcaOG]

Who does pass the test then?

I think there are two ways to answer this. If Messi has something over all others its his longevity. But for me it would be Maradona. You look at the decisive, do-or-die games of the 1986 WC and he was there (granted, with a very strong team) almost at every crucial point, giving assists or scoring key goals himself. Especially the latter. I don't think anyone else comes as close.

Edit: to pre-empt misunderstandings: no, definitely not CR7.

 

[serghei]

Also, I think people kind of underestimate just how big Guardiola's role was in creating modern Barcelona. Basically the only year we were successful in CL post Guardiola and played like a real best team in the world was when he had MSN running on peak football. And that only lasted for some good 6 months.