10 - Lionel Messi - V6

[serghei]

Again whats the point of having the GOAT thats surrounded with too much garbage ( Board , manager etc). Is it amazing to have Messi being a part of a system like back under the Pep (the only WC manager he worked with) days ? Yes , absolutely. But there isn't that much point having him when he has to do almost all of the work and it showed in the past 6 pathetic CL exits in the last 7 years.

That's the point. He doesn't have to do all of the work. But the right work. Some of the right work he has to do, he ain't doing it.

 

[messi2140]

That's the point. He doesn't have to do all of the work. But the right work. Some of the right work he has to do, he ain't doing it.

And as you mentioned thats a managerial issue. Besides Pep he mostly worked under bums whose plan a , b ,c is give the ball to Messi and hope for the best , Valverde just took that to the next level.

 

[te amo barca]

And as you mentioned thats a managerial issue. Besides Pep he mostly worked under bums whose plan a , b ,c is give the ball to Messi and hope for the best , Valverde just took that to the next level.

You’d think that he would start to suspect that something ain’t right after all these years, but then he just goes and openly supports Valverde. It’s mindboggling.

 

[serghei]

And as you mentioned thats a managerial issue. Besides Pep he mostly worked under bums whose plan a , b ,c is give the ball to Messi and hope for the best , Valverde just took that to the next level.

No, that's firstly a managerial issue. There are more than one causes. Everything starts with Barto and Valverde, they're the main responsible. Senior are major parts of the whole thing too though. Messi, Suarez, Busi, Rakitic, Alba, these guys can't be arsed. That's why they're backing Valverde.

 

[MagIX]

Again whats the point of having the GOAT thats surrounded with too much garbage ( Board , manager etc). Is it amazing to have Messi being a part of a system like under the Pep (the only WC manager he worked with) ? Yes , absolutely. But there isn't that much point having him when he has to do almost all of the work and it showed in the past 6 pathetic CL exits in the last 7 years.

I agree, that's the problem.
I was hoping that with the arrival of Couthino and Dembele (300mio !!) we would have corrected the problem, we'd take some of the responsibility away from him.

 

[messi2140]

No, that's firstly a managerial issue. There are more than one causes. Everything starts with Barto and Valverde, they're the main responsible. Senior are major parts of the whole thing too though. Messi, Suarez, Busi, Rakitic, Alba, these guys can't be arsed. That's why they're backing Valverde.

You’d think that he would start to suspect that something ain’t right after all these years, but then he just goes and openly supports Valverde. It’s mindboggling.

The least I expected was an ambigious answer from , something like " It's not up to me to decide who the manager is". Him fully backing Valverde had me fucked up no doubt. It is what it is at this point.

 

[soul24rage]

The least I expected was an ambigious answer from , something like " It's not up to me to decide who the manager is". Him fully backing Valverde had me fucked up no doubt. It is what it is at this point.

Agreed, thats one of the few things that pissed me off about Messi.

 

[Riordon]

It's fairly obvious what is the main reason for that. Ronaldo has a clear position, and a specialized role. Messi does not. Messi is the offensive game of Barcelona, by the way he is used, and the way he moves. He goes everywhere he wants, left, right, center, moves where he wants, when he wants and everyone has to adjust. If he drops back everyone gives him the ball. If he walks and doesn't cover an area, someone else has to pull a double shift. He has complete freedom, and for the system to allow that to a player, it means other areas have to suffer. Areas that suffer are very important: defensive transition in the first few seconds after a ball is lost is almost non-existent. Pressing? Good joke. Covering ground and maintaining shape is also terrible. Messi does almost no defensive work whatsoever. Doesn't even bother to press or close a pass that is 10m. away from him almost.

Ronaldo doesn't do that. That's not the way he is used. You won't see Ronaldo drop 40m. so he can take the ball from Kroos. But you do see Messi wandering around in midfield and vacating his position whenever he feels like.

So you have a specific part of the working system that is failing (Ronaldo), vs the system itself that is failing because it is designed to enhance a player that is not decisive enough on the night.

Completely agree. I would love to see which arguments people have against this. Also we have to play 442 with Messi with a medium/low bloke.

 

[soul24rage]

Completely agree. I would love to see which arguments people have against this. Also we have to play 442 with Messi with a medium/low bloke.

I mean we could ask the striker to join help in the defense so that 9 players can defend instead of 8 so it's a 451 instead of a 442.

But yeah Messi should at the very least press the person who is 5-10m away.

 

[serghei]

I mean we could ask the striker to join help in the defense so that 9 players can defend instead of 8 so it's a 451 instead of a 442.

But yeah Messi should at the very least press the person who is 5-10m away.

He should at least keep the shape so that when teammates press he is not leaving the other team a free option for a pass. Doesn't have to track that player and mark him, but at least move in a way to cut that pass or make it harder for the team in possession. But he's not even doing that.

When I say he has to do more defensive work I don't mean running like crazy. Just the average acceptable level for an attacking player in this modern game where teams usually defend with 10 players.

 

[Riordon]

I mean we could ask the striker to join help in the defense so that 9 players can defend instead of 8 so it's a 451 instead of a 442.

But yeah Messi should at the very least press the person who is 5-10m away.

Yes but what are the argument for a person who gets paid so much can’t press? I mean what the fuck? He is a professional athlete ?

What are the reasons?

 

[serghei]

Yes but what are the argument for a person who gets paid so much can’t press? I mean what the fuck? He is a professional athlete ?

What are the reasons?

The most plausible reason is that he doesn't like to do it. Slacking off is one of the main by-products of having too much talent at times. You think you don't have to work quite as hard as others. And when you have managers who don't have the balls to correct this kind of behavior, or at least temperate it, it grows until it becomes a problem.

The higher the talent, the more you run the risk of using that talent to sometimes bail you out for working as hard as others.

 

[soul24rage]

When I say he has to do more defensive work I don't mean running like crazy. Just the average acceptable level for an attacking player in this modern game where teams usually defend with 10 players.

I wish for all of that too.

Yes but what are the argument for a person who gets paid so much can’t press? I mean what the fuck? He is a professional athlete ? What are the reasons?

not sure, maybe he's lazy, maybe the manager asked him not to press. Who knows. We can't be 100% sure what the reasons are.

 

[serghei]

Anyway, I repeat, most of these issues are cup format and CL-based. In La Liga teams are generally not good enough to cope with the sheer amount of talent Messi has. No team can approach weekly games with insane intensity. The lesser the intensity and hard work the opponent has and is willing to put in a game, the more damage Messi does.

Barring a massive season from Madrid, we're winning another La Liga.

 

[xXKonan]

I think the most frustrating thing about Messi for me is not really his on-pitch performances but the unwillingness to come out and realize that things could really be better even if that means he has to rub some feelings the wrong way. But instead, he seems content with backing the likes of Valverde and letting him continue to drive the team further to the ground with incompetence.

IMO he is afraid of speaking out and coming off as a total bad guy that he's throwing his own coaches and some fellow players of his under the bus. My respect would increase ten-fold if he came out and actually criticized the manager and some of the players because frankly it's been a long time coming. If guys like Rakitic, Busi and the other captains, etc can't deal with it then they should do everyone a favor and leave.

His words would mean a lot. I'm sick of the idea of some key Veterans and the manager hiding behind Messi because he basically allows it.