10 - Lionel Messi - V6

[eaman]

Saving his energy for what? We crashed out of the CL via an away-leg hammering again, for the nth time in Messi's career and lost the cup final.

What's the point of conserving energy if it doesn't pay off when it needs to?

Think seriously and carefully for a moment about what it means to say that Messi is the best ever. It means that no other human who has ever played football professionally has been better. That's a very high standard. How is it that the best ever, the best human being ever to play football professionally, has failed to lead his team across the finishing line in the CL for five years, half a decade, which in football is an eternity, or his national team in four finals?

You can have a bad game and a bad final, maybe even two, where your team fails to perform for whatever reason. You cannot have four. Think about that for a moment. Four finals is at least 360 minutes of football, but in fact more if you include extra time.

How is it possible that the best ever should fail to produce one individual moment of magic in over 360 minutes of the most important football he has ever played? Not one shot that beats the keeper, not one mazy dribble, etc? Add to that the hundreds and hundreds of minutes in away CL matched that Messi has not dealt a killing blow.

If we are seriously talking about the best ever, if that is the standard, well, I don't think Messi passes the test.

It did work at anfield because he created 3 clear chances. Also it's not as if he doesn't run or press. Do you expect him to do it all game long

 

[Alik]

Saving his energy for what? We crashed out of the CL via an away-leg hammering again, for the nth time in Messi's career and lost the cup final.

What's the point of conserving energy if it doesn't pay off when it needs to?

Think seriously and carefully for a moment about what it means to say that Messi is the best ever. It means that no other human who has ever played football professionally has been better. That's a very high standard. How is it that the best ever, the best human being ever to play football professionally, has failed to lead his team across the finishing line in the CL for five years, half a decade, which in football is an eternity, or his national team in four finals?

You can have a bad game and a bad final, maybe even two, where your team fails to perform for whatever reason. You cannot have four. Think about that for a moment. Four finals is at least 360 minutes of football, but in fact more if you include extra time.

How is it possible that the best ever should fail to produce one individual moment of magic in over 360 minutes of the most important football he has ever played? Not one shot that beats the keeper, not one mazy dribble, etc? Add to that the hundreds and hundreds of minutes in away CL matched that Messi has not dealt a killing blow.

If we are seriously talking about the best ever, if that is the standard, well, I don't think Messi passes the test.

So is Messi a victim of his longevity? If he had retired in 2015-2016, would you have called him GOAT?

 

[BarcaOG]

So is Messi a victim of his longevity? If he had retired in 2015-2016, would you have called him GOAT?

not at all, his longevity is definitely to his credit. and no, because of the WC and CA failures

 

[BarcaOG]

It did work at anfield because he created 3 clear chances. Also it's not as if he doesn't run or press. Do you expect him to do it all game long

no. the expectation is brutal, but simple: be decisive. most often that means scoring. that is what must the expected of the best ever. The absence of that in half a decade of CL football is a serious hole in Messi's career and claim to goat status.

 

[serghei]

no. the expectation is brutal, but simple: be decisive. most often that means scoring. that is what must the expected of the best ever. The absence of that for half a decade in the CL is a serious holein Messi's career and claim to goat status.

Or at least assisting. There's nothing of that either in the humiliations in the last half a decade. All big losses with 0 goals scored away. It shows a massive problem in attack, and last time I checked Messi is a forward in charge of scoring first and creating goals second.

Of course it's not only Messi, and he's not the main responsible, but it's completely crazy to think he doesn't have any blame. Of course he does, just as many others.

Also, good comment. Simple and to the point.

 

[Riordon]

For me, the Messi camp is in complete denial. The player has some serious workrate and tactical limitations that is making it difficult for us, playing for Messi, to win the CL. It works with some opponents like United, Lyon, last year Chelsea, who are far from elite (probably even Europa League quality to be fair). When the top teams come, he is shut down, sulks, and we get stuffed away. Year, after year, after year.

Completely agree with this. Messi is a tactical nightmare to fit in for a coach post 2015. The team needs to adapts to him.

And it’s funny we can’t have a discussion about this and solutions to this problem, instead of hearing all kind of bullshit from the “Messi camp”.

Again nobody doubts he is the best ever but we should have a discussion about this. Its quite clear now. And even nobody teams fans discuss this.

 

[te amo barca]

Well I just completely disagree with you, it is fine. The most successful managers in this era (Pep, Klopp, J Mo) will tell you cup competitions have many things you just can't control--more often than not the best team doesn't win. Intensity also runs just as high in Classicos and Atletico domestically--and those are better than 90% of the CL teams--certainly 5x better than Roma. The idea these matches are not more indicative of the highest level of play (vs a match vs Roma or Lyon or United) is insane. When two teams of anywhere comparable quality, it is always going to be a crapshoot in 1 offs, or ties. (and even massive upsets can happen--see Roma). In a cup format one bad half and you are screwed. Season to season, champions league sample size is way too small. If you take all champions league matches, CR has a goal clip at .78 and Messi at .81. And that doesn't get to chances created, assiting in possession when others don't do the job, and playmaking Messi does. I am pretty sure CRs goals to shots (efficiency) is way worse--at least it has been in every comparison I have seen between them.

CR has had more CL success the last 4 years, no question (Had a lot less league and domestic cup success as well). Messi was the best player in the world this champions league season, well without a doubt the best attacking player. But IMO it is lazy thinking to not consider teammates, managers, flukes/good bounces, draws, calls and the nature of these competitions, see above. As some of us has said CR hasn't been the decisive player in the majority of his final appearances.

One final thing, if Messi and the club remains snakebitten from here on out in the CL, every Barca fan should celebrate him--just like Puyol, Iniesta and Xavi. Of course I don't think it will happen--hope the club gets at least one more with him, but it is possibility they don't--too many variables in any given year. It would take away some from his legacy yes, but take away what he has given to Barca, almost nada.

Messi has a better goal ratio in CL, but the number of goals Ronaldo scores in the knockout phases greatly exceeds those of Messi, for a reason.

 

[ebc_99]

I think there are two ways to answer this. If Messi has something over all others its his longevity. But for me it would be Maradona. You look at the decisive, do-or-die games of the 1986 WC and he was there (granted, with a very strong team) almost at every crucial point, giving assists or scoring key goals himself. Especially the latter. I don't think anyone else comes as close.

Edit: to pre-empt misunderstandings: no, definitely not CR7.

Come on, when Maradona was Messi's age he was finished, playing poorly for mid-table Sevilla, then headed back to play in Argentina. By that stage guys like Baggio, Van Basten, Gullit had all long surpassed Diego. Messi is still well on top, in fact the gap between him and everyone else is bigger than its ever been. It's an insult to suggest Maradona is better because of 7 World Cup games in 1986, when Messi has performed at an equally high level for 12 years. As good as Maradona was, he never did it as consistently as Messi, so when he did it, it received more wonderment than Messi because he does it every week. Unfortunately, Messi is so good so often even some Barca fans have become numb to his greatness, and don't appreciate him.

 

[DonAndres]

The difference is that when Ronaldo doesn't show up (3 out of 4 CL finals with RM), he doesn't get punished for it with his team losing.

That is the key characteristic of Barcelona. If Messi is not 10/10 in every game, the team manages to capitulate even the most surefire advantages. With the burden of carrying this Barca team and Argentina team, he hasn't had the luxury of being allowed off games since 2015.

Messi's workrate has been great the entirety of the past 2 seasons except for Roma away (yes that includes Anfield where he did as much as he could). He walked more in 15/16 and he has walked for Argentina a fair amount in the past few years.

Notice how the entire discussion of Messi being a "passive" player had disappeared from this forum for years now until the start of this Copa America.

 

[ini4ever]

More to it:

Louis Van Gaal:

“Guardiola won it [Champions League] with Barcelona because he had Messi and because he didn’t let Messi play in his own way. That’s the difference.

Messi adjusted to Guardiola’s plan, not the other way around...”

Louis Van Gaal:

“Guardiola achieved the most difficult thing – that the players moved in exactly the right direction at exactly the right time.

To do something like that you have to create a language, a team spirit, a community...”

“Look at Aguero. He played for himself until Guardiola changed him and now moves when he’s supposed to. That’s the art of coaching.”

To put it simple : Messi needs to be a part of the team not the team itself.

p.s : I just read some of the replies in the tweet, lol at those people completely missed VG's point.

 

[serghei]

Completely agree with this. Messi is a tactical nightmare to fit in for a coach post 2015. The team needs to adapts to him.

And it’s funny we can’t have a discussion about this and solutions to this problem, instead of hearing all kind of bullshit from the “Messi camp”.

Again nobody doubts he is the best ever but we should have a discussion about this. Its quite clear now. And even nobody teams fans discuss this.

This is the main variable that it is very unsure and hard to predict. I believe we have had mostly crap managers post Pep. It's hard for me to know exactly how much of what Messi is doing wrong in terms of movement and positioning that can be fixed by a better, more coherent, and more of a leader type manager. Somebody who would impose his style with much more tenacity than a coward like Valverde could ever dream to.

I'd be interested to see Messi in the hands of a tier 1 manager, like a Klopp or a Pep. He is a player that needs very good coaching.

 

[ebc_99]

To put it simple : Messi needs to be a part of the team not the team itself.

Who cares what Van Gaal says, he talks shit to get attention. He is a system manager that didn't have the imagination to think outside of it which is why he is unemployed and got fired from Barca (twice) Bayern & Man Utd.

 

[Riordon]

This is the main variable that it is very unsure and hard to predict. I believe we have had mostly crap managers post Pep. It's hard for me to know exactly how much of what Messi is doing wrong in terms of movement and positioning that can be fixed by a better, more coherent, and more of a leader type manager.

Agree again, it’s certainly doesn’t help with poor coaches. But I can’t see why people went insane after Van Gaal said that Messi as a captain should think about his role.

 

[messi2140]

This is the main variable that it is very unsure and hard to predict. I believe we have had mostly crap managers post Pep. It's hard for me to know exactly how much of what Messi is doing wrong in terms of movement and positioning that can be fixed by a better, more coherent, and more of a leader type manager.

It certaintly has to do with managers.

Managers Messi worked with :

Ernesto Valverde
Luis Enrique
Gerardo Martino
Tito Vilanova
Jordi Roura
Pep Guardiola
Frank Rijkaard

Now let's look at the managers CR7 worked with :

Massimiliano Allegri
Zinédine Zidane
Rafael Benítez
Carlo Ancelotti
José Mourinho
Manuel Pellegrini
Sir Alex Ferguson

I dont even have to say anything at this point , just speaks for itself.

 

[Alik]

not at all, his longevity is definitely to his credit. and no, because of the WC and CA failures

Ah, so you are one of those who thinks WC is necessary.

no. the expectation is brutal, but simple: be decisive. most often that means scoring. that is what must the expected of the best ever. The absence of that in half a decade of CL football is a serious hole in Messi's career and claim to goat status.

You are flip flopping by bringing up CL again. Messi's "absence" in half a decade of CL football happens to be in the most recent 5 years. If he had retired in 2015-2016, he would have had a similar career length at the topmost level as other top players in the past and would have avoided these failures.

You are ignoring that Messi led this team to a 3-0 win in the CL against Liverpool last season and yet you still called him absent.

Come on, when Maradona was Messi's age he was finished, playing poorly for mid-table Sevilla, then headed back to play in Argentina. By that stage guys like Baggio, Van Basten, Gullit had all long surpassed Diego. Messi is still well on top, in fact the gap between him and everyone else is bigger than its ever been. It's an insult to suggest Maradona is better because of 7 World Cup games in 1986, when Messi has performed at an equally high level for 12 years. As good as Maradona was, he never did it as consistently as Messi, so when he did it, it received more wonderment than Messi because he does it every week. Unfortunately, Messi is so good so often even some Barca fans have become numb to his greatness, and don't appreciate him.

This.