10 - Lionel Messi - V6

[BarcaOG]

Come on, when Maradona was Messi's age he was finished, playing poorly for mid-table Sevilla, then headed back to play in Argentina. By that stage guys like Baggio, Van Basten, Gullit had all long surpassed Diego. Messi is still well on top, in fact the gap between him and everyone else is bigger than its ever been. It's an insult to suggest Maradona is better because of 7 World Cup games in 1986, when Messi has performed at an equally high level for 12 years. As good as Maradona was, he never did it as consistently as Messi, so when he did it, it received more wonderment than Messi because he does it every week. Unfortunately, Messi is so good so often even some Barca fans have become numb to his greatness, and don't appreciate him.

yes, i agree about maradona, which is why the question is tricky, and why messi's longevity is a huge plus for his claim to goat status. but maradona achieved in a short period what messi has not been able to in much longer: to be absolutely decisive in the key, do or die games that define a career. the truth is that messi has never ever played for argentina as well as maradona did in 1986 (and 1982 and 1990).

you say messi does it every week. that means every game. that's just not true: he didn't 'do' it against Chelsea in 2012, or against Bayern in 2013, or against atletico in 2014, or against atletico again in 2015, or against Juve in 2016...etc etc etc. That's too many crucial, do or die opportunities missed. my point is simple: it is simply inconceivable that the best ever should fail to be decisive on so many occasions. there is no doubt messi is barca's greatest ever, and the world's best now and for the past 10 years. but the very best ever? im not so sure. you cant lose so many finals and blow it almost annually in the CL and yet somehow be the goat. that doesnt add up.

 

[BarcaOG]

Ah, so you are one of those who thinks WC is necessary.

i think the WC today is overrated, but not back then. unfortunately the wc is the best way to compare players from different generations. but in fact i dont need to emphasize the WC for my point to stand. you can lose a WC final even if you're the goat. what i said is that you cannot lose 4 international finals and be the goat. it can't work like that. the wc final just happens to be one of those missed opportunities--in combination, the evidence does not favour messi.

You are flip flopping by bringing up CL again. Messi's "absence" in half a decade of CL football happens to be in the most recent 5 years. If he had retired in 2015-2016, he would have had a similar career length at the topmost level as other top players in the past and would have avoided these failures.

You are ignoring that Messi led this team to a 3-0 win in the CL against Liverpool last season and yet you still called him absent.

Sure, but he did not. your point is a hypothetical. the world would be a better place if we all were rich, but we are not, so there is no point imagining that. You can only measure what is infront of you, and the truth is that Messi's career did not end in 2015. So the half a decade of failure cannot simply be wished away. it happened.

Finally, yes, he was great in the 3-0; no doubt. but CL ties are two legged affairs. again, you can't just ignore what did happen: we played a second match, we were hammered, and Messi did not produce a killing blow. those are the facts.

 

[CatalinR10]

we get it dude , Messi needs to score an average of 17-20 goals and also win it all to be considered to have a good CL season.

 

[te amo barca]

The difference is that when Ronaldo doesn't show up (3 out of 4 CL finals with RM), he doesn't get punished for it with his team losing.

That is the key characteristic of Barcelona. If Messi is not 10/10 in every game, the team manages to capitulate even the most surefire advantages. With the burden of carrying this Barca team and Argentina team, he hasn't had the luxury of being allowed off games since 2015.

Messi's workrate has been great the entirety of the past 2 seasons except for Roma away (yes that includes Anfield where he did as much as he could). He walked more in 15/16 and he has walked for Argentina a fair amount in the past few years.

Notice how the entire discussion of Messi being a "passive" player had disappeared from this forum for years now until the start of this Copa America.

Yes, when CR didn’t turn up at Madrid, it usually did not backfire. That was because Ronaldo is/was the “icing on the cake” in a working and coherent system, who knows what to do in every moment. His decision making is scarily consistent, like that of a robot.

Messi, on the other hand, is the very system itself. All it takes is for him to have a bad day and Barca are fucked. This is obviously down to the tactics and the coach, but Messi is not helping himself by simply going with the flow and publicly backing EV. Every team on the planet knows that we will simply pass the ball to Messi in every situation and wait for magic to happen. Against Liverpool away it was especially ridiculous. He was involved in literally every attack. Our players cower in times of desperation and simply leave it all to him, who himself has a ~50-50 chance of sulking under pressure in CL. Partly due to this, Dembele was somewhat missed in the return tie because he is so alien and unpredictable, which is a drastic change compared to the usual yes-men like Suarez, Alba, Raki and so on.

 

[serghei]

The difference is that when Ronaldo doesn't show up (3 out of 4 CL finals with RM), he doesn't get punished for it with his team losing.

It's fairly obvious what is the main reason for that. Ronaldo has a clear position, and a specialized role. Messi does not. Messi is the offensive game of Barcelona, by the way he is used, and the way he moves. He goes everywhere he wants, left, right, center, moves where he wants, when he wants and everyone has to adjust. If he drops back everyone gives him the ball. If he walks and doesn't cover an area, someone else has to pull a double shift. He has complete freedom, and for the system to allow that to a player, it means other areas have to suffer. Areas that suffer are very important: defensive transition in the first few seconds after a ball is lost is almost non-existent. Pressing? Good joke. Covering ground and maintaining shape is also terrible. Messi does almost no defensive work whatsoever. Doesn't even bother to press or close a pass that is 10m. away from him almost.

Ronaldo doesn't do that. That's not the way he is used. You won't see Ronaldo drop 40m. so he can take the ball from Kroos. But you do see Messi wandering around in midfield and vacating his position whenever he feels like.

So you have a specific part of the working system that is failing (Ronaldo), vs the system itself that is failing because it is designed to enhance a player that is not decisive enough on the night.

 

[Mitchell1978]

I think there are two ways to answer this. If Messi has something over all others its his longevity. But for me it would be Maradona. You look at the decisive, do-or-die games of the 1986 WC and he was there (granted, with a very strong team) almost at every crucial point, giving assists or scoring key goals himself. Especially the latter. I don't think anyone else comes as close.

Edit: to pre-empt misunderstandings: no, definitely not CR7.

Maradona had like a 5 year prime only (possibly best individual performance at a WC in 1986, another decent/good WC in 1990 and 5 or 6 great years in Napoli but not much else) thats just too short to be considered in the conversation of being the greatest and don't get me mentionned on his offcourt habits and his lack of statistical dominance.

 

[CatalinR10]

Yes, when CR didn’t turn up at Madrid, it usually did not backfire. That was because Ronaldo is/was the “icing on the cake” in a working and coherent system, who knows what to do in every moment. His decision making is scarily consistent, like that of a robot.

Messi, on the other hand, is the very system itself. All it takes is for him to have a bad day and Barca are fucked. This is obviously down to the tactics and the coach, but Messi is not helping himself by simply going with the flow and publicly backing EV. Every team on the planet knows that we will simply pass the ball to Messi in every situation and wait for magic to happen. Against Liverpool away it was especially ridiculous. He was involved in literally every attack. Our players cower in times of desperation and simply leave it all to him, who himself has a ~50-50 chance of sulking under pressure in CL. Partly due to this, Dembele was somewhat missed in the return tie because he is so alien and unpredictable, which is a drastic change compared to the usual yes-men like Suarez, Alba, Raki and so on.

Not only tactics and coach . You think you can win a CL with a midfield with both potato Rakitic and Busquets in it ? Put Messi in front of inform Modric and Kross and you'll win the CL 5 years straight.

 

[te amo barca]

Since the departure of Neymar, watching Barca feels like watching a guy play a become a legend mode in FIFA/PES with Messi as himself. Everyone passes the ball to you, every second combination has to end with a lay-off for you, you are everywhere on the pitch doing everything but defending, and so on. You get the idea. This is video game stuff, and annihilates any chances of having a rigid defensive structure, which is the backbone of success in CL.

 

[soul24rage]

I think there are two ways to answer this. If Messi has something over all others its his longevity. But for me it would be Maradona. You look at the decisive, do-or-die games of the 1986 WC and he was there (granted, with a very strong team) almost at every crucial point, giving assists or scoring key goals himself. Especially the latter. I don't think anyone else comes as close.

Edit: to pre-empt misunderstandings: no, definitely not CR7.

In one of those decisive games in the 86 WC, Maradona used his hand to get the first crucial goal in the WC QF. Very lucky for him, the refs didn't see it. It's sad that Messi doesn't have that kind of luck (Messi's miss shot in the WC final)

 

[Mitchell1978]

yes, i agree about maradona, which is why the question is tricky, and why messi's longevity is a huge plus for his claim to goat status. but maradona achieved in a short period what messi has not been able to in much longer: to be absolutely decisive in the key, do or die games that define a career. the truth is that messi has never ever played for argentina as well as maradona did in 1986 (and 1982 and 1990).

you say messi does it every week. that means every game. that's just not true: he didn't 'do' it against Chelsea in 2012, or against Bayern in 2013, or against atletico in 2014, or against atletico again in 2015, or against Juve in 2016...etc etc etc. That's too many crucial, do or die opportunities missed. my point is simple: it is simply inconceivable that the best ever should fail to be decisive on so many occasions. there is no doubt messi is barca's greatest ever, and the world's best now and for the past 10 years. but the very best ever? im not so sure. you cant lose so many finals and blow it almost annually in the CL and yet somehow be the goat. that doesnt add up.

What Maradona did in the WC 1986 Messi has done for the most part for Barcelona for the last 11 years now.
He has spoiled everyone with his consistency and brilliance loads of people gotten used to it.
Sad for those people most of all because it won't be around for that much longer (maybe 2 to 4 years).

 

[MagIX]

I think there are two ways to answer this. If Messi has something over all others its his longevity. But for me it would be Maradona. You look at the decisive, do-or-die games of the 1986 WC and he was there (granted, with a very strong team) almost at every crucial point, giving assists or scoring key goals himself. Especially the latter. I don't think anyone else comes as close.

Edit: to pre-empt misunderstandings: no, definitely not CR7.

Probably Maradona had the best performance ever in a WC.
But he never won a CL. He did not lead his team not even to a final, not even to a semi final, not even to a 1/4. Always out at the 1. match (in those days no group stages). That makes him a worse player ?
No. He is the best ever (or one of the best player ever) not because he won a WC but simply because of his talent, technique, game vision, magic, "soccer" intelligence (for me probably the best player I've ever seen, even though I change my mind once in a while when I see Messi playing)..... but he was a human, he wasn't decisive in every game, he missed penalties, he had bad games, he lost finals and so on.
No one is perfect.

 

[ini4ever]

The discussion is about CL. Ronaldo is the superior player in the Champions League, no doubt about it imo.

People need to understand why that is. And it's not because of Marcelo, Modric and Ramos lol.

It is because Ronaldo is fitter, stronger, more motivated and more willing to adapt to the requirements of the modern game the way we see them in the CL these days. He works harder and is a leader no doubt. Messi has clearly more talent which he shows every week almost in the league. But the CL is mainly about hunger to win fitness and hard work on the night. Ronaldo owns Messi in areas which are vital in CL.

Ronaldo's success in CL aside, which is obvious as he's been part of the team instead of Messi's team that all come down to him except Lucho's first two seasons,
Serghei you've mixed things up again tbh. I agree Ronaldo's been more motivated in CL if you count the numbers but Messi was same level maybe even more last season and guess what he couldn't lift CL. if we look at post Peps era, I think we can confidently conclude Messi's motivation wouldn't have given us another CL because of management problem.
2013 : Don't need to say anything about this year tbh, Tito's health problem and his injuries sum it up the year.
2014 : Tata Martinho, shit Manager with shitty tactics after what players used to work with.
2015 : He was motivated and we won CL simply we had still some proper tactics.
2016 : This is the only year we could say if he were motivated we could've won another CL.
2017 : Just like last year no matter how motivated had he been we would've been knocked out.
2018 : ...

Yeah Messi's motivation level may not be great in those years but all in all if he were motivated enough it wouldn't have mattered much anyways.

 

[serghei]

Since the departure of Neymar, watching Barca feels like watching a guy play a become a legend mode in FIFA/PES with Messi as himself. Everyone passes the ball to you, every second combination has to end with a lay-off for you, you are everywhere on the pitch doing everything but defending, and so on. You get the idea. This is video game stuff, and annihilates any chances of having a rigid defensive structure, which is the backbone of success in CL.

Something like that. Needs to stop pronto.

 

[te amo barca]

Not only tactics and coach . You think you can win a CL with a midfield with both potato Rakitic and Busquets in it ? Put Messi in front of inform Modric and Kross and you'll win the CL 5 years straight.

Yes, our rotten and spoiled core are also a big problem. Surprise, Messi is the captain and probably has the biggest influence in the dressing room. They live in the past, and don’t care much anymore.

 

[messi2140]

What Maradona did in the WC 1986 Messi has done for the most part for Barcelona for the last 11 years now.
He has spoiled everyone with his consistency and brilliance loads of people gotten used to it.
Sad for those people most of all because it won't be around for that much longer (maybe 2 to 4 years).

Again whats the point of having the GOAT thats surrounded with too much garbage ( Board , manager etc). Is it amazing to have Messi being a part of a system like under the Pep (the only WC manager he worked with) ? Yes , absolutely. But there isn't that much point having him when he has to do almost all of the work and it showed in the past 6 pathetic CL exits in the last 7 years.