10 - Lionel Messi - V6

[Ernesto GOATverde Tejedor]

funny how this guy was mocking the 'Lets hope Messi scores' gang on a Barca forum but when i checked the Ronaldo thread on a Juve forum (after Atleti 1st leg) they were basically on their knees 'we aren't worthy' 'Ronaldo will probably leave us and i don't blame him'

almost as embarrassing as the United fans still inlove with Cristiano

More so, Cristiano made a big difference when he went to Utd and I remember then he was actually an amazing player - I loved watching him. Ronny at Juve hasn't been impressive on the pitch or with his trophy haul there. Never thought I'd see such a great club sink so low. There must be some TRUE juve fans who are disgusted by the situation - maybe some Italians here can enlighten us.

 

[Ernesto GOATverde Tejedor]

Brazilians might not like Argentina and yes we do have a fierce rivalry but we also love Messi it is what it is and nope we didn't want them to win the world cup on our own home turf.
Lol ur obviously not Brazilian or even from Argentina so you're basing your information on what u read on the internet mate behave.

That's true, Brazilians have always been cool with Leo, despite him being Argentine. That's why he shouldn't have said what he said yesterday.

 

[Afromaticz]

That's true, Brazilians have always been cool with Leo, despite him being Argentine. That's why he shouldn't have said what he said yesterday.

This..how could anyone that actually loves football not appreciate Messi? It doesn't even matter where he's from that guy is not human anyways.

And you're 100% correct about the atmosphere at the stadiums it's been unusually quiet and alot of fans didn't bother showing up. One thing u have to consider though is that tickets are always expensive and most locals prefer watchin the games at home with their whole family.

And despite us making the final alot of the fans dont really appreciate the brand of football that we're currently playin. Argentina always got crazy fan support tho

 

[Pedro]

More so, Cristiano made a big difference when he went to Utd and I remember then he was actually an amazing player - I loved watching him. Ronny at Juve hasn't been impressive on the pitch or with his trophy haul there. Never thought I'd see such a great club sink so low. There must be some TRUE juve fans who are disgusted by the situation - maybe some Italians here can enlighten us.

I'm sure [MENTION=19985]Marchisio8[/MENTION] can enlighten you, he disappeared when Juve lost to Ajax in the CL, but now he's returned

 

[KingLeo10]

Argentine FA? Haven't heard this one before. Its usually Higuain, the other players/the whole team, or terrible coaches, This Copa edition it was the pitch fault.

lol this clown is back after pulling the supreme arrogance:

"we got the result we wanted in amsterdam"

fuck outta here, 2-7 in CL finals.

 

[Leo_Messi]

I can't state how dumb the average football fan seemingly is. We have people here (supposedly) who have watched football closely for years yet they don't understand that the most important thing for any team, even more so a national football team that rarely play together, is that the federation and management of the team have a cohesive sporting project, playing style and identity that is being implemented.

That is what all the winners (World Cup, EURO and Copa América) have been doing whether Spain at their best, Germany, Chile etc. Even the likes of Portugal (fluke win) had a clear identity.

5 different managers in less than 5 years, of course that will not have any say on the performance of any team, lol, more so a national team! Said the Juve retard in this thread.

Amazing. This might explain why some users here still see nothing wrong with our current useless board or Valverde or the "club de amigos" clan represented by the likes of Suárez, Rakitic etc.

Another example was Alves. He had a great game against an average Argentina team despite being way past it and 36 years old, and we had tons of users calling for his return despite the fact that PSG has performed much better without him playing as every stat shows. Short-sightedness to the extreme.

 

[iceon]

Acunas first booking was a joke. Casameiro got away with so much. Also alves completely took out aguero for another penalty. There is a video out there with an angle that shows how clear it was. It was a crazy tackle really. Look I don't think Argentina were brilliant just that they were better than Brazil certainly in footballing terms. This is a real negative Brazil team

You're being extremely biased sorry. I really don't see how the Aguero one is a penalty, I'm sorry but Thiago Silva clears the ball about a second before him and Dani Alves runs into each other and Aguero actually stamps on Dani as well. I do realize people might argue differently but it's not clear at all. The Arthur one is a penalty for me, but even that one is debatable and a matter of interpretation. In todays era with VAR that is probably a penalty, but those kinds of tackles/blocks happened every single game before VAR.

And yes Casemiro got away as he usually does, but compared to what the Argentinians midfielders got away in the first half there's no comparison either. Acunas first booking is not a joke, he kept getting at Dani arguing and lost his head for a minute. He also put his studs into Alves on a play later and was freed from it which could've easily been rewarded a red.

At the end of the day, the ref was terrible, but he never decided this game. Argentina are an extremely average side apart from Messi and that was shown once again last night as he had to go deep and collect the ball so something could happen. Argentinas midfield and defense was the reason they lost. This Brazil side under Tite are used to winning like this against most teams, they rarely look impressive offensively, especially when Neymar doesn't play either.

 

[iceon]

That's true, Brazilians have always been cool with Leo, despite him being Argentine. That's why he shouldn't have said what he said yesterday.

Messi lost it yesterday, he tried to show passion for once and it came out extremely weird. Do feel bad for him, but I think he'll win the Copa America next year and redeem himself on the national team stage.

 

[Leo_Messi]

They have no shot at the World Cup unless they can add a ton of quality by then which doesn't seem that likely.




By far his best performance and Argentina deserved more but in a way a logical result as Brazil has for more quality, talent and experience overall





It seems South American teams and overall South American football is falling further and further behind in terms of quality of football, organisation, development etc compard to Europe.

Argentina was never a favorite in any of the last 9 tournaments (IMO), maybe with the exception of 2015, yet they reached 4 finals. Anything can happen in a knockout tournament in particular as relatively short as the Copa América. Especially when it will be played at home (partially as Colombia will also host it, the final included) next summer.

Take this tournament as an example. I only watched 3 Argentina games (missed the Paraguay and Qatar games) but they were horrible against Colombia and Venezuela. Played their best football against Brazil and should probably have advanced if not for their missed chances and referee controversies. Brazil were really mediocre and unimpressive. If Argentina had a better defense, they would have won that game. Take Allison and Marquinhos/Silva from Brazil and replace them with Armani and Otamendi, and Argentina would have won that game 100%. Case in point is that everything can happen in knockout tournaments. If Portugal can win the EURO's, Argentina can certainly win the Copa América next year.

Agree with that. Argentina created more but were much more wasteful than Brazil whose 2 goals came due to Argentina's mediocre defense.

Well, the results don't lie. The last time a South American team won the World Cup was in 2002. The last 4 winners have been European teams. In 2006, 2010 and 2018 we had pure European finals moreover.

This is what can happen if you don't have the same managerial talent, the same good setups and sporting projects (long-term) and if you lack behind financially.

Take Brazil as an example. If not for Tite being their manager, they would likely be as clueless as Argentina despite the abundance of talent.

 

[iceon]

Argentina was never a favorite in any of the last 9 tournaments (IMO), maybe with the exception of 2015, yet they reached 4 finals. Anything can happen in a knockout tournament in particular as relatively short as the Copa América. Especially when it will be played at home (partially as Colombia will also host it, the final included) next summer.

Take this tournament as an example. I only watched 3 Argentina games (missed the Paraguay and Qatar games) but they were horrible against Colombia and Venezuela. Played their best football against Brazil and should probably have advanced if not for their missed chances and referee controversies. Brazil were really mediocre and unimpressive. If Argentina had a better defense, they would have won that game. Take Allison and Marquinhos/Silva from Brazil and replace them with Armani and Otamendi, and Argentina would have won that game 100%. Case in point is that everything can happen in knockout tournaments. If Portugal can win the EURO's, Argentina can certainly win the Copa América next year.

Agree with that. Argentina created more but were much more wasteful than Brazil whose 2 goals came due to Argentina's mediocre defense.

Well, the results don't lie. The last time a South American team won the World Cup was in 2002. The last 4 winners have been European teams. In 2006, 2010 and 2018 we had pure European finals moreover.

This is what can happen if you don't have the same managerial talent, the same good setups and sporting projects (long-term) and if you lack behind financially.

Take Brazil as an example. If not for Tite being their manager, they would likely be as clueless as Argentina despite the abundance of talent.

So take Alisson, Thiago, Marquinhos and Tite out and they wouldn't be the same team? Ah great insight. Brazil were mediocre, but under Tite they've rarely created much and they play quite a comfortable possession football which has been completely impossible to play with the field conditions and was seen last night.

 

[Leo_Messi]

So take Alisson, Thiago, Marquinhos and Tite out and they wouldn't be the same team? Ah great insight. Brazil were mediocre, but under Tite they've rarely created much and they play quite a comfortable possession football which has been completely impossible to play with the field conditions and was seen last night.

Can you read or are you more worried about writing one-liners?

I wrote Alisson and one of either Thiago Silva or Marquinhos. In other words I gave 2 examples of players that make the main difference between the two teams. In other words there is not such a big difference between those two teams quality wise or in practice (as the results of the past many tournaments also confirms) as made out to be which was also confirmed yesterday. Both are not very impressive teams at all.

Me mentioning Tite, if you had read my previous post just above the one that you quoted, was a reference to the importance of having had a talented manager with clear ideas rather than changing coaches 100 times as Argentina have been doing lately. So yes, if Brazil had an incompetent federation (as incompetent as I know that the Brazilian federation has not been much better hence the very bad Brazilian results in the past 10+ years) as the Argentinian one and changed managers as frequently as Argentina has been doing, they would have similar struggles as Argentina despite an even greater abundance of talent. Significantly greater in fact.

Tite's tactics and playing style is a carbon copy of his Corinthians team. A pragmatic manager yet with clear ideas and who is interested in taking the control of a game while having a great emphasis on the defense. Which has showed in this tournament as Brazil is yet to concede a single goal in 5 games.

Nobody can tell what the hell Scaloni's sporting project, defined playing style etc. is about and hardly any manager would have been able to implement anything in such a chaotic environment (and such little time and so few games) hence my previous post about the enormous importance of a long-term sporting project, distinctive playing style, vision, competent manager and federation etc. which you seem to have missed completely. Rather you focused on a small part of my post that was about names/players to make it easier for some users to understand what my point was of those examples.

As for the state of the pitches, you don't need to tell me that, I wrote about it already and anyone who saw just 1 game during the tournament, could attest to the horrible state of the stadiums. That in itself is just a confirmation of how far behind Copa América is compared to the regular EURO tournament. Not even going to talk about the referees, the level of the teams or the dull atmosphere at the stadiums.

 

[iceon]

Can you read or are you more worried about writing one-liners?

I wrote Alisson and one of either Thiago Silva or Marquinhos. In other words I gave 2 examples of players that make the main difference between the two teams. In other words there is not such a big difference between those two teams quality wise or in practice (as the results of the past many tournaments also confirms) as made out to be which was also confirmed yesterday. Both are not very impressive teams at all.

Me mentioning Tite, if you had read my previous post just above the one that you quoted, was a reference to the importance of having had a talented manager with clear ideas rather than changing coaches 100 times as Argentina have been doing lately. So yes, if Brazil had an incompetent federation (as incompetent as I know that the Brazilian federation has not been much better hence the very bad Brazilian results in the past 10+ years) as the Argentinian one and changed managers as frequently as Argentina has been doing, they would have similar struggles to Argentina despite an even greater abundance of talent.

Tite's tactics and playing style is a carbon copy of his Corinthians team. A pragmatic manager yet with clear ideas and who is interested in taking the control of a game while having a great emphasis on the defense.

Nobody can tell what the hell Scaloni's sporting project is about and hardly any manager would have been able to implement anything in such a chaotic environment hence my previous post about the enormous importance of a long-term sporting project, distinctive playing style, vision, competent manager etc. which you seem to have missed completely. Rather you focused on a small part of my post that was about names/players to make it easier for some users to understand what my point was of those examples.

As for the state of the pitches, you don't need to tell me that, I wrote about it already and anyone who saw just 1 game during the tournament, could attest to the horrible state of the stadiums. That in itself is just a confirmation of how far behind Copa América is compared to the regular EURO tournament. Not even going to talk about the referees, the level of the teams or the dull atmosphere at the stadiums.

I wasn't necessarily disagreeing and agree with what you posted I just think that it goes without saying that Argentina would be a better side with a better manager, better goalkeeper, better defender and lastly a better federation. Was just being petty

 

[Leo_Messi]

I wasn't necessarily disagreeing and agree with what you posted I just think that it goes without saying that Argentina would be a better side with a better manager, better goalkeeper, better defender and lastly a better federation. Was just being petty

That is a given and no biggie. I mentioned 2 players only (2 positions) and I stand by that. It is not much of a difference actually. So while Brazil has much more talent on paper and much greater squad depth, in practice the difference is not as big as it should be. The game yesterday confirmed it as has the past 10+ years of results. Rarely (during that time) did Argentina have a superior squad to Brazil let alone squad depth yet they performed much better while reaching numerous finals unlike Brazil whose last final was in 2007.

So actually Argentina despite winning nothing, has overall been one of the best performing national teams in the world in the past 15 years (no national team has reached as many finals in that period for instance, yes I know that the amount of Copa América tournaments within a relatively short time period have a say here nevertheless) and that speaks volume of Messi (in a good way) despite the obvious (enormous) struggles that he and the rest of the team has been up against in the form of a utterly incompetent federation, no sporting project in sight, no defined playing style, 100's of different managers etc. Imagine having had that team in 2010 and yet had a cocaine addicted clueless manager in the form of Maradona. Tragicomical stuff.
Sure, once reaching those 4 finals, they should have won at least once or maybe even twice (were favorites against Chile in both finals and the game against Germany was a coin flip really despite Germany being the favorites beforehand) but they did not and that is football. On the other hand you had Portugal winning a EURO in 2016 under absurd circumstances. Even if they tried repeating that win 100 times in a row, they would not have repeated that win. Football is not an exact science and that is what makes it the best and most popular sport in the world.

BTW forgot to mention the toxic Argentinian sports media in my recent posts. One of the main reasons why Argentina is this disliked by other South American fans.

 

[underoath]

U guys never run out of excuses when it comes to Argentina's failures. They've been shit for years mate.

And nope at least we Brazilians and by that i mean most of us can admit that Messi is the true GOAT and we always root for them as long as they're not playin against us.

U will never see Argentines showing love to Brazil never lol

But they're not shit in that game tho, REFs really fuck up and robbed a good game

 

[Total-Football]

Without a World Cup as the best player for Argentina, Messi will never be the GOAT in his own country. People will be upset, but it is what it is.

Messi is still the GOAT in Barca & LaLiga though, which is amazing.

For me.. the messi haters (which are 99% ronaldo dickriders and very few neutrals) hide behind the Messi is not the goat fallacy .. in fact, they are tricking logic here, and by doing this, and counting on some basic discourse analysis here, they are allowing themselves to never pronounce who the goat is.. the reality is this:

You will never sound retarded saying «messi is not the goat». (thats why everybody choose this ambiguous grammatical structure)

you will sound retarded everytime you actually choose another grammatical structure, one in which you actually name who is more worthy of the title.

It is just basic language manipulation. as long as they say Messi is not the goat (hiding who is) they seem as if they are expressing a unified answser.But force them and press them to have the balls to name a name, and you will get a lot of names.. which means their statement in its core is not unified as it seems.

ps: it if for the same reason a us newspaper uses the headlines : « A drone hit such and such place». Because the metaphorical expression allows to hide the doer, namely the entity which actually manipulates the drone.

the « messi is not the goat» is the same shit. it relieves you from all arguments needed because u dont even say who is better.

ps: my quote was in general about messi and his goat status and not in particular about his status in argentina.