10 - Lionel Messi - V6

[Givenchy]

For me.. the messi haters (which are 99% ronaldo dickriders and very few neutrals) hide behind the Messi is not the goat fallacy .. in fact, they are tricking logic here, and by doing this, and counting on some basic discourse analysis here, they are allowing themselves to never pronounce who the goat is.. the reality is this:

You will never sound retarded saying «messi is not the goat». (thats why everybody choose this ambiguous grammatical structure)

you will sound retarded everytime you actually choose another grammatical structure, one in which you actually name who is more worthy of the title.

It is just basic language manipulation. as long as they say Messi is not the goat (hiding who is) they seem as if they are expressing a unified answser.But force them and press them to have the balls to name a name, and you will get a lot of names.. which means their statement in its core is not unified as it seems.

ps: it if for the same reason a us newspaper uses the headlines : « A drone hit such and such place». Because the metaphorical expression allows to hide the doer, namely the entity which actually manipulates the drone.

the « messi is not the goat» is the same shit. it relieves you from all arguments needed because u dont even say who is better.

ps: my quote was in general about messi and his goat status and not in particular about his status in argentina.

the term 'GOAT' is an opinion, not a fact. even if Messi won a world cup, most Argentina fans would still proclaim Maradona as the greatest - his legacy is immortal

its pointless arguing about it as neither side (Ronaldo vs Messi) will change their stance. both sides will argue to the death and use any excuse possible. football is being americanized (see VAR) so its no surprise everyone is obsessed with stats and recency bias. the majority of people who think Ronaldo>Messi are Canadian/American from my experiences online atleast

some people, including my grandfather, always said Cruyff was the GOAT. not just for his ability but the way he changed football, his legacy etc. everyone sees things different

Messi is without doubt the most talented player of this generation though, no doubt about that

anyways, Chile fucking up tonight, Argentina would of played Peru in the final..

 

[Total-Football]

the term 'GOAT' is an opinion, not a fact. even if Messi won a world cup, most Argentina fans would still proclaim Maradona as the greatest - his legacy is immortal

its pointless arguing about it as neither side (Ronaldo vs Messi) will change their stance. both sides will argue to the death and use any excuse possible. football is being americanized (see VAR) so its no surprise everyone is obsessed with stats and recency bias. the majority of people who think Ronaldo>Messi are Canadian/American from my experiences online atleast

some people, including my grandfather, always said Cruyff was the GOAT. not just for his ability but the way he changed football, his legacy etc. everyone sees things different

Messi is without doubt the most talented player of this generation though, no doubt about that

anyways, Chile fucking up tonight, Argentina would of played Peru in the final..

and i would respect when people come forward and say maradonna is the goat (i am fine with that, i love him too as a player). what i dont respect, is the fallacy of using negation «messi is not the goat» because it helps one dodging the reality of needing to name someone better. If one believes Cris is better he should have the balls to state it. Most choose not to and stay contented with « messi is not the goat» for the aforementioned reasons. This expression allows messi haters to be on the same line.

 

[snowy]

Maldini is the GOAT and Messi is the Shepherd

Maradona is la bella donna

yearning for a life of freedom

 

[kollegah]

now he deserves all the criticism.

He did not show up at Liverpool and played a horrible tournament with Argentina.
FFS I think he did not complete more than 3 dribbling in these games.
He always walked around on the middle circle (yeah I know, some dummies will say he wants to contro, the midfield)
Disgusting to see aguero and martinez press like mad men while he is walking around and doing nothing.

I thank him for all the good years and all the magic he brought to Barca, but nowaday his is just lazy and spoiled and also lost 75% of his magic.
If you didnt know Messi was Messi, no one in the entire world would recognize him as best player on the field.

He was dragged by Argentina to the semis and failed miserably

 

[Andrew M]

now he deserves all the criticism.

He did not show up at Liverpool and played a horrible tournament with Argentina.
FFS I think he did not complete more than 3 dribbling in these games.
He always walked around on the middle circle (yeah I know, some dummies will say he wants to contro, the midfield)
Disgusting to see aguero and martinez press like mad men while he is walking around and doing nothing.

I thank him for all the good years and all the magic he brought to Barca, but nowaday his is just lazy and spoiled and also lost 75% of his magic.
If you didnt know Messi was Messi, no one in the entire world would recognize him as best player on the field.

He was dragged by Argentina to the semis and failed miserably

And when he scores 50 goals and gets 20 assists for us next season you are gonna be spouting the same trash.

 

[Hardy]

Thanks god they lost, imagine him bottling another final to the freaking Perù

 

[clemente]

now he deserves all the criticism.

He did not show up at Liverpool and played a horrible tournament with Argentina.
FFS I think he did not complete more than 3 dribbling in these games.
He always walked around on the middle circle (yeah I know, some dummies will say he wants to contro, the midfield)
Disgusting to see aguero and martinez press like mad men while he is walking around and doing nothing.

I thank him for all the good years and all the magic he brought to Barca, but nowaday his is just lazy and spoiled and also lost 75% of his magic.
If you didnt know Messi was Messi, no one in the entire world would recognize him as best player on the field.

He was dragged by Argentina to the semis and failed miserably

He did not show up at Liverpool? If I was mod I would just perma ban for this garbage post.

 

[kollegah]

He did not show up at Liverpool? If I was mod I would just perma ban for this garbage post.

Unfortunately you are not a mod.

Yes he did not show up IN liverpool (e.g. anfield road).
He always shows up at camp nou, because it is his comfort zone but please look at the following games:

Liverpool away
Roma Away
Atletico away x2
Juventus away
WC final 2014
All copa finals

his body language in these games was comparable to zombie (I can understand in some cases, but htf he was not playing his heart out in WC final 2014????, he had to know that it was his one and only chance for international glory)

 

[Andrew M]

Unfortunately you are not a mod.

Yes he did not show up IN liverpool (e.g. anfield road).
He always shows up at camp nou, because it is his comfort zone but please look at the following games:

Liverpool away
Roma Away
Atletico away x2
Juventus away
WC final 2014
All copa finals

his body language in these games was comparable to zombie (I can understand in some cases, but htf he was not playing his heart out in WC final 2014????, he had to know that it was his one and only chance for international glory)

Yes that handful of games is all his fault. Not like the rest of the team was useless, but he must carry us in every game apparently

 

[clemente]

Unfortunately you are not a mod.

Yes he did not show up IN liverpool (e.g. anfield road).
He always shows up at camp nou, because it is his comfort zone but please look at the following games:

Liverpool away
Roma Away
Atletico away x2
Juventus away
WC final 2014
All copa finals

his body language in these games was comparable to zombie (I can understand in some cases, but htf he was not playing his heart out in WC final 2014????, he had to know that it was his one and only chance for international glory)

You realize he created like 2 or 3 1v1 chances just in Anfield? What you would be saying now if those chances were finished? It was his best ever CL performance?

 

[Judoman]

I m getting more and more annoyed by this "Messi didn t show up, did this, did that" narrative.

Ffs, the guy produces 60-70+ goals+assist per year. Wtf is the problem? Did MJ/Lebron showed up every fucking game? And this is basketball, where 1 player has much bigger impact on a single game, than it has in football. MJ must have sucked hard. He only won 6 titles.

Yes, he doesn t move much, he never did. I m betting my house and my left testicle, that there is no coach on the planet, who will say no to such player, despite him not moving a lot. It s a team sport, not 1 on 1 duel. He has
10 other guys around him, let them run ffs.

Yes, he is not a leader. For ppl who repeat this over and over again, i suggest you look inside and think about changing just one of you personal characteristics. It is extremely rare for a person to do so. Most of us
stay the same person since we were 5-6 years old and expecting someone else to do it is horribly stupid and/or hypocritical. He doesn t need to be a leader, it isn t necessary. He was just thrown in to leadership role, because he is surrounded by incompetent ppl.

What Messi would need is good management around him. This goes for Barca and Argentina teams. Competent management would recognize what kind of a person he is and what kind of a player he is and adjust players/coaches around him.
Since Guardiola left, when did this happen? Ever?

Finally, it isn t his job to replace coaches and players. Wtf is a problem if he is a nice guy and he shows support for his team mates and even Valverde.

 

[Alik]

You realize he created like 2 or 3 1v1 chances just in Anfield? What you would be saying now if those chances were finished? It was his best ever CL performance?

Not to mention it completely ignores the first leg.

Just focusing on his failures seems to be what the majority posters seem to do these days.

 

[Devils]

Messi is the least to blame. He's at least delivered in most first leg matches.

Roberto, Rakitic, Busi, Pique, MAtS, Alba and Saurez have all been utter trash in our big CL matches over the past 3 years and deserve far more blame.

 

[BBZ8800]

Unfortunately you are not a mod.

Yes he did not show up IN liverpool (e.g. anfield road).
He always shows up at camp nou, because it is his comfort zone but please look at the following games:

Liverpool away
Roma Away
Atletico away x2
Juventus away
WC final 2014
All copa finals

his body language in these games was comparable to zombie (I can understand in some cases, but htf he was not playing his heart out in WC final 2014????, he had to know that it was his one and only chance for international glory)

I haven't thought about the EXACT thing which you mentioned here, about AWAY matches and Messi's comfort zone.
I agree with you that Messi goes MIA and sulks too often in a CL and with Argentina.

But now after you post, I checked the stats, and you are completely right.
Messi's stats outside of La Liga and outside of HOME CL knockout rounds matches are horrible.

This is a list of ALL Messi's CL knockout away matches with Barca from 2008/09 till today (since he became famous and a pressure started to grow around him), plus World cup KO matches with Argentina and Copa America KO matches with Argentina.
Someone will ask: why are you counting ONLY KO matches and NOT group stage matches?
= well, exactly because in La Liga, in a CL group stage and in a WC group stage, there is usually NO SUDDEN DEATH (KO) threat.
And even if you lose, you will have 1-2 chances to win in upcoming matches.
But when it comes to KO matches, mixed with AWAY matches, when there is a huge pressure of being KO'd that night and Messi is far from his comfort zone (La Liga and Camp Nou), look at what is happening in the last 5-6 years:

CL:
2009:
Lyon 1:1, Henry
Bayern 1:1, Keita
Chelsea 1:1, Iniesta
Man Utd 0:2, Etoo, Messi

2010:
Stuttgart 1:1, Ibrahimovic
Arsenal 2:2, Ibrahimovic, Ibrahimovic
Inter 3:1, Pedro

2011:
Arsenal 2:1, Villa
Shakthtar 0:1, Messi
Real 0:2, Messi, Messi
Man Utd 1:3, Pedro, Messi, Villa

2012:
Leverkusen 1:3, Messi
Milan 0:0, --
Chelsea 1:0, --

2013:
Milan 2:0, --
Psg 2:2, Messi
Bayern 4:0

2013/14:
City 0:2, Messi (pen), Dani Alves
Atletico 1:0, KO, --

2014/15:
City 1:2, Suarez, Suarez
Psg 1:3, Neymar, Suarez, Suarez
Bayern 3:2, Neymar, Neymar
Juve 1:3, Rakitic, Suarez, Neymar

2015/16:
Arsenal 0:2, Messi (pen), Messi
Atletico 2:0, --

2016/17:
Psg 4:0, --
Juve 3:0, --

2017/18:
Chelsea 1:1, Messi
Roma 3:0, --

2018/19:
Lyon 0:0, --
Man Utd 0:1, Shaw (og)
Liverpool 4:0, --

(I won't count penaldos):
32 KO matches since Pep's days.
Messi scored in only 8 matches out of those 32.

What is worse, in the last 6 years, he played 15 AWAY KO matches for Barca:
2 goals from an open play and 2 pens
= so, Messi scored (not counting penaldos) only against Chelsea and Arsenal in the last 6 years of AWAY KO matches.
On 2 out of 15 matches.

World Cup 2006:
1/8: Mexico 2:1, Crespo, Maxi Rodriguez
1/4: Germany: didn't play

World Cup 2010:
1/8: Mexico 1:3, Tevez x2, Higuain
1/4: German 0:4, --

World Cup 2014:
1/8: Switzerland 0:1, Di Maria
1/4: Belgium 0:1, Higuain
1/2: Netherlands 0:0, 2:4 pens
Final: Germany 1:0, --

World Cup 2018:
1/8: France 4:3, Di Maria, Mercado, Aguero

Copa America 2011:
1/4: Uruguay 1:1, 5:4, Higuain

Copa America 2015:
1/4 Colombia 0:0, 4:5 pens
1/2 Paraguay 6:1, --
Final: Chile 0:0, 4:1 pens

Copa 2016:
1/4 Venezuela 1:4, Messi
1/2 Usa 0:4, Messi
Final: Chile 0:0, 4:2 pens

Copa 2019:
1/4: Venezuela 0:2, Lo Celso, Martinez
1/2: Brazil 2:0, --

So, outside of La Liga, group stage, qualifying rounds and Camp Nou matches:
1. CL AWAY KO matches since 2009':
= 32 matches, 8 goals without penaldos
2. World cup KO matches after 2009':
= 7 KO matches
= 0 goals in his career
3. Copa America KO matches after 2009':
= 9 matches, 2 goals

Total since 2008/09:
= 48 big away KO matches, 10 goals scored

What is worse, since 2013, it seems that a pressure has changed him.
Since 2013/14 season, Messi has played 28 big KO AWAY matches in a CL, World cups and Copa America, and scored goals on only 4 out of 28 away KO matches.
Further, Messi's teams has been KO'd 10 times on AWAY matches since 2013/14 season.
Messi hasn't scored a SINGLE GOAL on any of those 10 occassions when his team was KO'd:
2014: Atletico 1:0
2016: Atletico 2:0
2017: Juve 3:0
2018: Roma 3:0
2019: Liverpool 4:0

2014: Germany 1:0
2018: France 4:3

2015: Chile 0:0
2016: Chile 0:0
2019: Brasil 2:0

** I know, people will get extremely mad for me posting stats like these.
But the point stands from a user Kollegah:
Messi is a way weaker player when he plays outside his comfort zone.
And his comfort zone is: La Liga and HOME Camp Nou CL matches.
When Barca/Argentina play away KO matches, Messi often goes Mia or into a sulking mode when we start to lose.

My post in not about: who is a real GOAT?
My post is about these Messi's patterns.
I see that some users are mentioning 50 goals and similar.
Well again, that will probably happen in his comfort zone: La Liga.
If we'll want to win CL, we will probably need 1 more guy who will turn up, like Griezmann or Neymar.

Maybe Messi's poor mental strength and sulking away from Camp Nou is also one of the reasons why we have won only 1 CL in the last 7 years.
Even if use alibies like: Valverde, Rakitic, bad luck, poor teammates: isn't it weird that Messi has scored only 4 goals in the last 28 AWAY KO matches with Barcelona and Argentina since 2014 season?

** Btw, maybe this is why we are buying Neymar and Griezmann.
Maybe Messi really needs more guys around him in those big AWAY Champions league KO matches...

 

[Tekkers]

I haven't thought about the EXACT thing which you mentioned here, about AWAY matches and Messi's comfort zone.
I agree with you that Messi goes MIA and sulks too often in a CL and with Argentina.

But now after you post, I checked the stats, and you are completely right.
Messi's stats outside of La Liga and outside of HOME CL knockout rounds matches are horrible.

This is a list of ALL Messi's CL knockout away matches with Barca from 2008/09 till today (since he became famous and a pressure started to grow around him), plus World cup KO matches with Argentina and Copa America KO matches with Argentina.
Someone will ask: why are you counting ONLY KO matches and NOT group stage matches?
= well, exactly because in La Liga, in a CL group stage and in a WC group stage, there is usually NO SUDDEN DEATH (KO) threat.
And even if you lose, you will have 1-2 chances to win in upcoming matches.
But when it comes to KO matches, mixed with AWAY matches, when there is a huge pressure of being KO'd that night and Messi is far from his comfort zone (La Liga and Camp Nou), look at what is happening in the last 5-6 years:

CL:
2009:
Lyon 1:1, Henry
Bayern 1:1, Keita
Chelsea 1:1, Iniesta
Man Utd 0:2, Etoo, Messi

2010:
Stuttgart 1:1, Ibrahimovic
Arsenal 2:2, Ibrahimovic, Ibrahimovic
Inter 3:1, Pedro

2011:
Arsenal 2:1, Villa
Shakthtar 0:1, Messi
Real 0:2, Messi, Messi
Man Utd 1:3, Pedro, Messi, Villa

2012:
Leverkusen 1:3, Messi
Milan 0:0, --
Chelsea 1:0, --

2013:
Milan 2:0, --
Psg 2:2, Messi
Bayern 4:0

2013/14:
City 0:2, Messi (pen), Dani Alves
Atletico 1:0, KO, --

2014/15:
City 1:2, Suarez, Suarez
Psg 1:3, Neymar, Suarez, Suarez
Bayern 3:2, Neymar, Neymar
Juve 1:3, Rakitic, Suarez, Neymar

2015/16:
Arsenal 0:2, Messi (pen), Messi
Atletico 2:0, --

2016/17:
Psg 4:0, --
Juve 3:0, --

2017/18:
Chelsea 1:1, Messi
Roma 3:0, --

2018/19:
Lyon 0:0, --
Man Utd 0:1, Shaw (og)
Liverpool 4:0, --

(I won't count penaldos):
32 KO matches since Pep's days.
Messi scored in only 8 matches out of those 32.

What is worse, in the last 6 years, he played 15 AWAY KO matches for Barca:
2 goals from an open play and 2 pens
= so, Messi scored (not counting penaldos) only against Chelsea and Arsenal in the last 6 years of AWAY KO matches.
On 2 out of 15 matches.

World Cup 2006:
1/8: Mexico 2:1, Crespo, Maxi Rodriguez
1/4: Germany: didn't play

World Cup 2010:
1/8: Mexico 1:3, Tevez x2, Higuain
1/4: German 0:4, --

World Cup 2014:
1/8: Switzerland 0:1, Di Maria
1/4: Belgium 0:1, Higuain
1/2: Netherlands 0:0, 2:4 pens
Final: Germany 1:0, --

World Cup 2018:
1/8: France 4:3, Di Maria, Mercado, Aguero

Copa America 2011:
1/4: Uruguay 1:1, 5:4, Higuain

Copa America 2015:
1/4 Colombia 0:0, 4:5 pens
1/2 Paraguay 6:1, --
Final: Chile 0:0, 4:1 pens

Copa 2016:
1/4 Venezuela 1:4, Messi
1/2 Usa 0:4, Messi
Final: Chile 0:0, 4:2 pens

Copa 2019:
1/4: Venezuela 0:2, Lo Celso, Martinez
1/2: Brazil 2:0, --

So, outside of La Liga, group stage, qualifying rounds and Camp Nou matches:
1. CL AWAY KO matches since 2009':
= 32 matches, 8 goals without penaldos
2. World cup KO matches after 2009':
= 7 KO matches
= 0 goals in his career
3. Copa America KO matches after 2009':
= 9 matches, 2 goals

Total since 2008/09:
= 48 big away KO matches, 10 goals scored

What is worse, since 2013, it seems that a pressure has changed him.
Since 2013/14 season, Messi has played 28 big KO AWAY matches in a CL, World cups and Copa America, and scored goals on only 4 out of 28 away KO matches.
Further, Messi's teams has been KO'd 10 times on AWAY matches since 2013/14 season.
Messi hasn't scored a SINGLE GOAL on any of those 10 occassions when his team was KO'd:
2014: Atletico 1:0
2016: Atletico 2:0
2017: Juve 3:0
2018: Roma 3:0
2019: Liverpool 4:0

2014: Germany 1:0
2018: France 4:3

2015: Chile 0:0
2016: Chile 0:0
2019: Brasil 2:0

** I know, people will get extremely mad for me posting stats like these.
But the point stands from a user Kollegah:
Messi is a way weaker player when he plays outside his comfort zone.
And his comfort zone is: La Liga and HOME Camp Nou CL matches.
When Barca/Argentina play away KO matches, Messi often goes Mia or into a sulking mode when we start to lose.

My post in not about: who is a real GOAT?
My post is about these Messi's patterns.
I see that some users are mentioning 50 goals and similar.
Well again, that will probably happen in his comfort zone: La Liga.
If we'll want to win La liga, we will probably need 1 more guy who will turn up, like Griezmann or Neymar.

Maybe Messi's poor mental strength and sulking away from Camp Nou is also one of the reasons why we have won only 1 CL in the last 7 years.
Even if use alibies like: Valverde, Rakitic, bad luck, poor teammates: isn't it weird that Messi has scored only 4 goals in the last 28 KO matches with Barcelona in Argentina since 2014 season?

** Btw, maybe this is why we are buying Neymar and Griezmann.
Maybe Messi really needs more guys around him in those big AWAY KO matches...

can u do one of these breakdowns on rakitic? i'm interested to hear your perspective