11 - Neymar Jr. - v4

[DonAK]

Stats. Messi's stats AND impact on the pitch outperforms Suarez and Neymar by some margin.

This obsession with stats only is annoying. Statistically Cesc Fabregas is among the best Barcelona players in a decade. Should tell you everything about discounting everything else and what happens on the field and relying solely on those damn stats on these fancy websites.

 

[Sumlit]

I don't understand the argument. Is the argument here Messi doesn't outperform the other 2 members of the trident? or are you guys combining Suarez and Neymar into one player and saying Messi doesn't outperformed that hypothetical combined player?

If it's the former, that's wrong, Messi definitely and conclusively outperforms them individually; If the latter, that's a dumb argument whichever side you're arguing for.

 

[JamDav1982]

I don't understand the argument. Is the argument here Messi doesn't outperform the other 2 members of the trident? or are you guys combining Suarez and Neymar into one player and saying Messi doesn't outperformed that hypothetical combined player?

If it's the former, that's wrong, Messi definitely and conclusively outperforms them individually; If the latter, that's a dumb argument whichever side you're arguing for.

The stats were brought up to try and show Messi does as much as Neymar/Suarez combined. Which he doesnt no matter how good he is.

As an individual Messi out performs them both.... even in terms of stats it is not that wide though.

Messi is best ever so not trying to say anyone is better than him but for me if Neymar AND Suarez were missing the team is weaker than just Messi missing.

 

[Stric]

I don't understand the argument. Is the argument here Messi doesn't outperform the other 2 members of the trident? or are you guys combining Suarez and Neymar into one player and saying Messi doesn't outperformed that hypothetical combined player?

If it's the former, that's wrong, Messi definitely and conclusively outperforms them individually; If the latter, that's a dumb argument whichever side you're arguing for.

It started with JamDav asking whether we'd rather "lose" Messi and have a Neymar/Suarez/Sandro trident, or "lose" Neymar and Suarez and have a Messi/Sandro/Munir trident. The discussion whether Messi outperforms the other two combined began when I said I'd rather keep Messi if I had to, because he bring a lot to the team, arguably as much as or even more than the other two combined.

 

[DonAK]

Ok, apparently it was Neymar and Suarez combined vs Messi.

Thought it was individually.

Just read Stric's post above. I'd also keep Messi.

 

[JamDav1982]

It started with JamDav asking whether we'd rather "lose" Messi and have a Neymar/Suarez/Sandro trident, or "lose" Neymar and Suarez and have a Messi/Sandro/Munir trident. The discussion whether Messi outperforms the other two combined began when I said I'd rather keep Messi if I had to, because he bring a lot to the team, arguably as much as or even more than the other two combined.

Yes and you brought up the stats to try and show there is little difference between Messi and other two combined.

Which is not the case if you are looking at it stat wise.

If you take away 7/8 goals for Messi on set pieces/pens then the out put of those stats is around 62% Suarez/Neymar and 38% Messi.

I woud say all are pretty much equal in terms of pens/free kick ability.

 

[Stric]

The stats are an illustration. Messi is the best player in history, and brings more to a team than any other player could, statistically, tactically and psychologically. To some that's reason enough to want to keep him ahead of Suarez and Neymar. Besides, this team existed without Suarez or Neymar up until only 2 years ago, and it was hugely successful without them. So far it was never and never had a chance to be hugely successful without Messi, but with Neymar and Suarez, so based on experience, too, I'd rather keep Messi.

 

[Sumlit]

This is not a great argument , quite pointless, no disrespect intended.

Though as Messi is the most irreplaceable player of the 3, any crazy hypothetical scenario for me will always have to include him.

 

[JamDav1982]

The stats are an illustration. Messi is the best player in history, and brings more to a team than any other player could, statistically, tactically and psychologically. To some that's reason enough to want to keep him ahead of Suarez and Neymar. Besides, this team existed without Suarez or Neymar up until only 2 years ago, and it was hugely successful without them. So far it was never hugely successful without Messi, but with Neymar and Suarez, so based on experience, too, I'd rather keep Messi.

The team got more successful with Neymar and Suarez than any time during previous 5 years by a long way.

The average trophy haul with the three of them together vs Messi on his own weighs in their favour of making a huge difference.

Need not look any further than Argentina for how frustrated Messi is without players if their caliber and how much better those players make him.

 

[Sumlit]

The team got more successful with Neymar and Suarez than any time during previous 5 years by a long way.

The average trophy haul with the three of them together vs Messi on his own weighs in their favour of making a huge difference.

Need not look any further than Argentina for how frustrated Messi is without players if their caliber and how much better those players make him.

Yes, but that's really not an argument against Messi and for Neymar/Suarez, but rather against his partners and their performance for Argentina and Barcelona previously.

 

[gasgas]

i wouldnt mind a sandro suarez neymar triden though

 

[JamDav1982]

Yes, but that's really not an argument against Messi and for Neymar/Suarez, but rather against his partners and their performance for Argentina and Barcelona previously.

It is an argument for how much Messi can do on his own as people seem to think. The same people who then blame his team mates with Argentina.

I am saying Messi cant do it on his own not as an attack on him but to show how every player needs good players around them. That includes Messi and Neymar and Suarez.

There is no chance whatsoever in my opinion Barca win the treble with a Messi, Pedro and Sanchez front line. No matter how well Messi plays.

 

[Sumlit]

It is an argument for how much Messi can do on his own as people seem to think. The same people who then blame his team mates with Argentina.

I am saying Messi cant do it on his own not as an attack on him but to show how every player needs good players around them. That includes Messi and Neymar and Suarez.

There is no chance whatsoever in my opinion Barca win the treble with a Messi, Pedro and Sanchez front line. No matter how well Messi plays.

Well yes, obviously, Pedro and Sanchez are not as good as Neymar and Suarez. Pedro, Messi, Sanchez might, might have worked if the team was a lot stronger behind them though. Though same could be said about Neymar and Suarez without Messi.

All players need good partners to play with.

 

[JamDav1982]

Well yes, obviously, Pedro and Sanchez are not as good as Neymar and Suarez.

Exactly which limited the impact Messi could have as it does for Argentina.

I believe a front three of with Suarez and Neymar poses more threats than one with Messi on his own and nothing to bounce off.

There is no doubt whatsoever for me a front three with those two and Sandro would produce more goals assists than one with Messi and two weaker players.

 

[Catalan Fan]

This Neymar thread is getting silly.

People actually discussing his potential transfer to Utd as though it might actually happen, now people falling out over our front 3 ffs, and we're one game into the season.

Unbelievable Jeff !