11 - Neymar Jr. - v4

[JamDav1982]

Well you're taking 2 world class attackers and replacing them with unproven youth players, that's hardly a fair question.

Your last sentence is not the issue though, I think everyone can agree Messi by himself cannot win everything, nor any other footballer has or will, the issue being discussed here is the impact Messi has had on the team, the level that impact has contributed to it's success vs the impact someone else would have had in his stead.

Messi has a bigger impact on the team than any single player could have but Messi with Argentina clearly shows how much he relies on the team around him.

The Barca team without Messi would have still been one of best in europe. Messi on an average team would not have been anywhere near best in europe.

That is not a slight on Messi it is just that the team as a whole is more important than any single player and that includes Messi.

 

[serghei]

So far you've agreed a player like Alexis could have won just as much in Messi's stead; That he's just a wheel in the machine, not the one that made the machine work; That he won nothing on his own; Contradicted yourself by saying Messi made the team legendary from brilliant, and then said Barcelona won with Messi, not because of him. This about arguably the greatest player to ever play football. So forgive me if I don't buy your assertions that you're not trying to downplay Messi, and that you're coming with arguments to back up the subject.

1. I've said Alexis instead of Messi would have made the team weaker, but still would have won titles. It means the rest of the team would have compensated the difference in quality between Messi and Alexis. And you provided the Alexis example, not me.

2. There is a difference between winning things and being a legendary team. Inter 2010 won the treble just as Barca did, but they were not a great team. So, when I said Messi made Barcelona a legendary team, but we would have still won trebles without him, it is not a contradiction, since not every team that wins trebles is legendary. Quite a simple difference, born from the fact that winning is not everything that makes a team be truly great and worthy of being remembered in time by future generations. Messi and trebles can exist one without the other you know... it's proven actually.

 

[JamDav1982]

Right now Barca needs Messi's midfield influence more than ever. I would rather lose Neymar and Suarez than lose everything Messi offers, which is a lot.

Messi can only drop deep and have an influence on midfield as hey know he can have world class players on front of him to play ball too like Suarez and Neymar. Replace them with Munir and Sandro and the whole thing breaks down.

The amount of influence Messi can have as an individual is evident for Argentina.

Barca minus Messi would hammer Argetina with him as they are so much better as a team.

 

[Sumlit]

1. I've said Alexis instead of Messi would have made the team weaker, but still would have won titles. It means the rest of the team would have compensated the difference in quality between Messi and Alexis. And you provided the Alexis example, not me.

I said:

Yup, Barcelona would have won 2 trebles and 25 trophies in a decade with, let's say, Alexis instead of Messi. Messi's just icing, not the cake.

And you proceeded to say:

It would've been weaker of course, but yes, I think so.

Take the 2011 team.

Valdes - very good
Alves - best RB in the world
Puyol - monster CB and huge leader
Abidal - world class
Pique - world class
Busquets - one of the best DMs ever
Xavi - midfield legend
Iniesta - better than Zidane by the time he will retire
Pedro - great player
Villa - one of the best strikers in the history of spanish football

That collection of players would have dominated Europe with or without Messi.

So you obviously said Barcelona would have been as successful trophy-wise with Alexis instead of Messi, if albeit weaker. Alexis was just a player chosen at random. Well maybe not at random, it was directed

2. There is a difference between winning things and being a legendary team. Inter 2010 won the treble just as Barca did, but they were not a great team. So, when I said Messi made Barcelona a legendary team, but we would have still won trebles without him, it is not a contradiction, since not every team that wins trebles is legendary. Quite a simple difference, born from the fact that winning is not everything that makes a team be truly great and worthy of being remembered in time by future generations.

You said Barcelona won with Messi, not because of him, yet you admit Messi elevated the team to a different level, completely disproving your premise.

I'm not the one saying these things, you are.

 

[Stric]

Messi can only drop deep and have an influence on midfield as hey know he can have world class players on front of him to play ball too like Suarez and Neymar. Replace them with Munir and Sandro and the whole thing breaks down.

The amount of influence Messi can have as an individual is evident for Argentina.

Barca minus Messi would hammer Argetina with him as they are so much better as a team.

And what happens when you take Messi out and lose everything he does for those world class players in front of him? They become invisible, too. Last season Messi only scored 6 goals fewer and made 2 assists fewer than Neymar and Suarez combined. He himself scored almost as many goals as two world class forwards combined. And the stats don't even show the influence he has outside of goals and assists. I know who I'd rather keep if I had to choose. There's a reason Messi is the best player ever. I wouldn't trade him for 5 world class forwards.

 

[Sumlit]

Messi has a bigger impact on the team than any single player could have but Messi with Argentina clearly shows how much he relies on the team around him.

The Barca team without Messi would have still been one of best in europe. Messi on an average team would not have been anywhere near best in europe.

That is not a slight on Messi it is just that the team as a whole is more important than any single player and that includes Messi.

This, again, is not the point. It is agreed Messi is dependent on the talent around him, like any other player is.

The point being discussed here is his impact on the team and it's success since, vs the impact another player would have had in his stead. The example chosen was Alexis instead of Messi.

 

[Stric]

The Messi with Argentina comments are ridiculous. The fact that Messi brought a below average Argentina team a step away from winning the World Cup and the Copa America speaks volumes about how much of an influence he has on an average team.

 

[JamDav1982]

And what happens when you take Messi out and lose everything he does for those world class players in front of him? They become invisible, too. Last season Messi only scored 6 goals fewer and made 2 assists fewer than Neymar and Suarez combined. He himself scored almost as many goals as two world class forwards combined. And the stats don't even show the influence he has outside of goals and assists. I know who I'd rather keep if I had to choose. There's a reason Messi is the best player ever. I wouldn't trade him for 5 world class forwards.

Suarez and Neymar have done enough away from Barcelona to prove they dont need Messi to not be 'invisible'.

As have the rest of the team with Spanish national team etc.

Arguably the other players have better cvs without Messi than he does without them. Infact not arguably, without a doubt they do.

You say yourself Messi makes less goals/assists than Neymar and Suarez combined and that is him on all set pieces/pens and the focal point of team. While Suarez missed chunk of the season.

 

[JamDav1982]

The Messi with Argentina comments are ridiculous. The fact that Messi brought a below average Argentina team a step away from winning the World Cup and the Copa America speaks volumes about how much of an influence he has on an average team.

Argentina were not in any way more of an average squad than other teams in the Copa or World Cup and Messi did not drag them anywhere single handed anyway.

 

[serghei]

You said Barcelona won with Messi, not because of him, yet you admit Messi elevated the team to a different level, completely disproving your premise.

So, you think there can't be a difference of level between teams that win the same titles? You think winning a final 5-4 on penalties for example, is the same as winning it at ease? Again, winning things and being a legendary team are not exactly the same. You can't be a legendary team if you don't win titles, but you can win titles without being a legendary team.

Without Messi I think we would have won some of those games harder. With him, we won them easier, in a more clear fashion. How is that a contradiction? It's not.

Actually, the statement was that Messi elevated Barcelona from a brilliant team to a legendary one. Brilliant teams can win the same titles that the legendary ones do. Trebles and such. The difference is how people will remember those teams in time. That's what Messi brought to Barcelona. GOAT status, not titles.

 

[Sumlit]

So, you think there can't be a difference of level between teams that wins the same titles? You think winning a final 5-4 on penalties for example, is the same as winning it at ease, puting on a show? Again, winning things and being a great team is not exactly the same. Without Messi I think we would have won those games harder. With him, we won them easier, in a more clear fashion. How is that a contradiction.

So to you, Messi's only impact for Barca in all these titles has been winning games easier vs winning them harder? Barca would have won regardless, Messi just made made the results wider.

Not downplaying Messi's contributions, nope, not at all.

 

[Stric]

You say yourself Messi makes less goals/assists than Neymar and Suarez combined and that is him on all set pieces/pens and the focal point of team. While Suarez missed chunk of the season.

Are you fucking kidding me? This is somehow negative for Messi? You must have overlooked the part where I sad ONLY SIX GOALS FEWER, not just "fewer". Only six goals fewer than the two other forwards, one of whom was next in line on the top scorer chart. That's an incredible stat even for the one who's the penalty/FK taker. And on top of it, he still managed to serve about 30-ish goals for his teammates, many of those exactly to those two teammates. Of all the stupid posts you've written, this must be among the worst.

 

[Neymessi]

[youtube]-kSf48LvdB4[/youtube]

Time for a light moment now.

 

[JamDav1982]

Are you fucking kidding me? This is somehow negative for Messi? You must have overlooked the part where I sad ONLY SIX GOALS FEWER, not just "fewer". Only six goals fewer than the two other forwards, one of whom was next in line on the top scorer chart. That's an incredible stat even for the one who's the penalty/FK taker. And on top of it, he still managed to serve about 30-ish goals for his teammates, many of those exactly to those two teammates. Of all the stupid posts you've written, this must be among the worst.

Not saying anything negative about Messi other than I think he like every player ever needs the right players around him to perform.

Yes you used stats that show in Messi as an individual does not out perform the other two put together. Which he cant and thats normal.

Tell me why Messi fails to take Argentina to victory? If the answer is anything at all do ti with quality of team mates then it proves my point.

 

[serghei]

So to you, Messi's only impact for Barca in all these titles has been winning games easier vs winning them harder? Barca would have won regardless, Messi just made made the results wider.

Not downplaying Messi's contributions, nope, not at all.

The only way what I said is "downplaying Messi's contributions" is if you think Messi was the reason we won those titles and there's no way we couldn't have won it without him (no way a team filled with world class players all around would have won without Messi, that's crazy, considering what Bayern did in 2013, without having a Messi, or even an Iniesta or a Xavi). If that's what you think then, yes, I'm downplaying Messi's contribution, call it how you like it.

The way I see it, Messi made a brilliant side even better, to GOAT status. Others think the team without Messi couldn't have won those titles. I think differently, and at the end of the day, it's me downplaying Messi's contribution, or others downplaying Xavi, Iniesta, Eto'o, Henry, Alves, Pique, Villa, Busquets, Abidal, Puyol, Suarez, Neymar, Alba, Rakitic, Toure, Pedro etc. contribution.