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Flavia
Guest
Barça would not have won 25 titles in the last ten years without Messi. And yet you said that would happen. It just would not.
JamDav1982
Senior Member
Exactly, no chance Barca would have won 25 trophies in last ten years without Messi just as he would not have won them in an average team that didnt give him platform to perform.
It works both ways but the team as a whole minus Messi has a bigger influence than him as an individual ever can.
Stric
New member
Who says he doesn't? There's an irrefutable fact, and that's that in the current world NT cycle, Argentina have been more successful than ANY OTHER TEAM IN THE ENTIRE WORLD except one. That's what being a runner-up is, you know. And on the official FIFA World Rankings as of August 6th, Argentina is ranked #1. So please tell me more about how he fails to take Argentina to victory.
Spain, on the other hand, exited the tournament first.
BARELY doesn't outperform the other two combined. BARELY. We're talking 10-ish percent here. And the other two both had fantastic seasons on their own. You're once again completely missing the point. Whether you do it on purpose or you're just too thick to understand, either way my time is too valuable to be wasted discussing with you.
Stric
New member
Does anyone know why they're training in match-day shorts rather than their usual training shorts?
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Flavia
Guest
Never said he would, in an average team. That's a moot point, because if he was not in Barça, he'd be at rm by now. Don't get why you're quoting me.
JamDav1982
Senior Member
Losing in finals is not a success ffs. Not that it is Messis fault he just doesnt have the team mates to help him win that he does at Barca.
You are comparing a player on all set pieces and the focal point of the team vs two who one of which missed a large chunk of the season and the other two still have the better stats.
You act like Messi with the B team could take Barca to the CL..... yet are first to cry about 'below average' Argentina players being reason Messi cant take them to success for the NT.
Total contradiction.
JamDav1982
Senior Member
More just quoting to agree as think Serghie is in the wrong about Messi influence but not to extent others are making out.
They had a Photo shoot today. So probably just told them to stay in those shorts.
[youtube]nqlSw3I-Yro[/youtube]
serghei
Senior Member
I did take it to the extremes tbh. I don't really think we would've won the same titles without Messi (maybe most, but not all, maybe not the 2011 CL either, as that RM team in the semifinal was really strong). That post I made was the complete opposite of those saying Messi won X titles on his own, so it was equally as wrong. There, I've said it.
Forgive me, Messi.
Forgive me, Messi.
Stric
New member
JamDav, ignoring hard facts and twisting others' words to suit his absurd arguments since Oct 2010.
Makes sense, thanks.
Makes sense, thanks.
BBZ8800
Senior Member
Barca won 1 CL title in their whole history, without Messi.
In 1992.
Also, we could say that we would probably win it also in 2006 even without young Messi's contribution.
In last 7 years, we won 3 times.
And if Messi will stay here for 4-5 more years, we will win at least 2 more CLs.
Then, when you put everything on paper:
-- Cruijff, Brasilian Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Figo, Pep, Lucho, Kluivert, Romario, Stoichkov, Ronaldinho
= managed to win 1 (or 2) CL titles in our whole history
= and some of these players were much better players than Neymar, Suarez, Iniesta and Rakitic
And then, if Messi stays here for a few more years, we will have 5 CL titles in his 10-12 years here.
So, sorry, but I can't just buy story:
1. that Ney and Suarez will alone bring us too many trophies (after or without Messi)
2. also, I am not buying the story how this Barca (when you remove Messi) is any better than most of Barca's teams from 90's and 00's
-- again, Van Gaal's Barca had: Pep, Lucho, Figo, Rivaldo, Kluivert, Sonny Anderson, Giovanni, Cocu (the same player as Rakitic).
-- Rivaldo, Figo and Kluivert/Anderson/Giovanni couldn't be worse than Iniesta-Ney-Suarez
Messi brought:
1. calmness
2. leadership in terms of goals, assists in decisive moments
3. insane amount of space for our other attackers
4. some sort of a winning spirit
Remove Messi from the current team and you get a just good, old Barca, from any era.
An awesome team, which can win against anyone, but also, which can lose against anyone in any CL quarterfinal or semifinals...
Anyway, I will never understand that hype how the current team/attack is better than any other Barca's team.
Remove Messi and what do we have?
Anyway, 1998-1999 team and our La Liga goals (if anyone is bored and want to watch some nice goals from the past, enjoy):
JamDav1982
Senior Member
The 'Hard Facts' show that Messi as in individual did not out perform Suarez and Neymar despite one missing chunk of season and Messi being on almost all set pieces......what facts am I ignoring?
The 'hard facts' also show you complain about Messi's team mates for Argentina when they dont win yet ignore how important his team mates are for Barca.
Messi is best ever but the idea he can do it all on his own is as absurd as the idea that Maradona did the same in 1986.
JamDav1982
Senior Member
No talking to you.
I did the sums by the way and you are way off on this idea that it is close on Messi v Neymar/Suarez on stats in terms of time on pitch and that allows for Messi being on set pieces.
Will leave you to go and work it out if you can. Good lad.
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