11 - Ousmane Dembélé - V1

[Maxim4]

I have been reading this forum for 7-8 years now.
And I am finally starting to understand some things.

In the past, I used to think: are majority of posters dumb or what?
But lately, I don't think that posters are dumb.
You just suffer from extreme delusions, you are too emotional, too romantic and too dreamy.
Barcelona and Barcaforum is your "safe place", where you can run from real life problems and here, everything is perfect.
Well, it is perfect at least on paper and in your minds, guys.

So, basically, in real world, outside of our forums, numbers say:
1. that 2 out 3 Barca's signings will fail, and only 1 out of 3 will turn into a starter or a first sub long term
2. in terms of La Masia players, a chance for each player (who is among 2-3 highest rated players in his generation) is around 5-10% to turn into a starter or into 12th, 13th player of a team

Those are facts from a real world.
On the other hand, we have our fans who have their own facts:
1. Alena will make it
2. Puig will make it
3. Oriol will make it
4. Wague is close also
5. Dembele is a generational talent
6. Malcom is a very good player
7. Arthur could be the next Xavi
8. there is nothing wrong with Semedo etc

Again, in real world, facts about players mentioned above are:
1. Dembele:
Pros: insane talent, pace, young
Cons: low IQ, not suitable for possession based teams, questionable professionalism, weak ball control, very bad passes, bad decisions, bad reading of the game, weak defending, meh shooting skills (inspite of his good goal ratio this season), weak chemistry with majority of teammates, not willing to learn a language, extremely injury prone.
So, basically, chances are probably 50:50 (or I would say: way worse than that) that he will turn into:
1) what you guys are expecting from him and that he will improve his decisions, tactical understanding, shooting, passing, chemistry. That he won't be injury prone anymore.
When you remove emotions: how likely is all of that, knowing Dembele's injuries, IQ and poor professionalism?
Also, Jairzinho, you posted cherry picking stats where you are mentioning examples of players who have linearly improved over time.
Fine. But that is another example of delusion and "a safe, dreamy place" for our fans.
Why haven't you mentioned 1000s of other examples where players haven't developed at all after the age of 19 or 22?
For example, what if Dembele will follow this path?
Bojan Krkic, age 18=10 La Liga goals.
Bojan Krkic, age 28=0 goals in a whole season
Bojan Krkic, age 29=1 goals in a whole season

Pedro, age 22=12 La Liga goals
Pedro, age 23=13 La Liga goals
Pedro, last 2 seasons, aged 30 and 31=4 and 8 goals.

Tello, aged 22=7 goals for Barca
Tello, (aged 27 today) last 4 seasons=2, 4, 4, 4 goals per season.

Halilovic, aged 17=5 goals for Dinamo in Croatia
Halilovic, aged 19=3 goals for Sporting Gijon
Halilovic, aged 23 today, last 3 seasons combined=0+2+0 goals. He plays for Standard Liege in Belgium today.

So, you assumed that Dembele will follow a path of linear and predictable development, where a player slowly improves in majority of skills over years.
But again, a lot of other players don't improve at all, or improve very slightly (not enough).
Also, you mentioned Neymar, he has reached his footballing peak aged 23 in a year 2015.
After that, it was all showboating, partying, poor finishing.
So, again, do you realize that Dembele could also be at his peak already and that it would all go downhill from now on?

But if you dare to ask questions like that, people will get upset because you are killing their dreams and they will reply: you are an idiot, you don't know nothing about football, this guy has cancerous posts, why isn't he banned yet?

About other players mentioned above, the same story.
One poster mentioned a few days ago how Oriol will be Busi's replacement, while in reality, we have bought:
Frenkie for that position, Arthur can play on that position, we wanted Rabiot for that position, we are considering Rodri for that position, we are linked with Ndombele for that position, Todibo was tried a few times on that position, we have just bought Reis for that position.
And Oriol isn't even called for a 1st team in meaningless matches.
So, which option makes more logic in a real world, outside of this dreamy-place?
1) Oriol will be our future pivot for the next 10 years?
2) or a club already discarded him and has moved to 5+ different options. Regarding him, if he will improve insanely=he will get some chances. If not, who cares, more or less, the club has moved on.

Also, one more thing from a real world.
Don't be too attached for Dembeles, Malcoms, Oriols, Puigs and similar.
1) their chances to make it are statistically always way weaker than you think
2) and with asking for miracles from him, you will just be disappointed and you will yell at coaches and everyone: why a player XX is not playing all the time? He is our future...

Here is a list (from a real world) of all of our midfield and attacking signings in the last 20 years:
Attackers:
1999: Dani Garcia, Simao Sabrosa
2000: Overmars, Alfonso Perez
2001: Saviola, Geovanni Deiberson
2002: -
2003: Ronaldinho, Quaresma,
2004: Eto'o, Larsson, Guily, Maxi Lopez
2005: Ezquerro
2006: Gudjohnsen
2007: Henry
2008: -
2009: Ibrahimovic, Keirrison
2010: Villa
2011: Alexis
2012: -
2013: Neymar
2014: Suarez
2015: -
2016: Paco
2017: Dembele
2018: Malcom, Prinze
2019: Griezmann ??

Midfielders:
1999: Litmanen
2000: Gerard Lopez, Petit
2001: Fabio Rochemback
2002: Riquelme, Mendieta
2003: Davids
2004: Deco, Edmilson, Albertini
2005: Van Bommel
2006: -
2007: Yaya Toure
2008: Keita
2009: -
2010: Afellay
2011: Fabregas
2012: Song
2013: -
2014: Rakitic
2015: Arda
2016: Gomes, Denis
2017: Paulinho, Coutinho
2018: Arthur, Vidal
2019: Frenkie

We bought 25 (!) attackers in the last 20 years and 24 midfielders.
And we were even blessed with Messi for 13 years here. So, one attacking spot was occupied with him.
So, even in 13 years of Messi, when we had only 2 attacking spots "free", we bought 12 new attacking players.
Plus, only in the last 13 years, we tried these La Masia attackers: Bojan, Tello, Cuenca, Gio Dos Santos, Jeffren, Pedro, Deulofeu, Sandro, Munir, Adama, Halilovic, Arnaiz, even Rafinha as a RW.
So, even in Messi's 13 years, we bought 12 new attackers and tried 13 La Masia attackers. That is 25 attackers in total over 13 years.
And even after 25 players tried, we are AGAIN in a search for a new winger/SS (Griezmann) or a new "9" (Jovic).

So, when you guys are writing posts like: Dembele and Malcom will be here for 10 years.
Or: Puig, Alena, Oriol (plus Dembele, Malcom) is our future core.
Seriously, how objective is that?

For guys who started follow Barca during Pep, you may think that Barca is keeping players for 10 years, since it happened with Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Busi, Puyol, Alves, Valdes.
But this was our the most successful era ever. And this is the only reason why we were buying LESS players than usual.
And even in the most successful era, we bought 25 new attackers over 20 years and tried 13 new La Masia attackers, and bought 24 new midfielders (lol), even though we had Xavi, Iniesta, Busi in a team.

My point: when we won't have Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Busi=you can expect even more chaotic transfers.
And 1-2 new midfielders and 1-2 new attackers in each new season.
Before Pep's era:
For example:
Cocu: 6 years
Kluivert: 6 years
Ronald Koeman: 6 years
Ronaldinho: 5 years
Etoo: 5 years
Rivaldo: 5 years
Figo: 5 years
Stoichkov: 5+2 years
Romario: 2 years

So, when you guys post ideas: we should buy Jovic, we could have him for the next 10 years (Dembele-Jovic for 10 years). Lol, that will never happen.
Imo, buying 28 years old Griezmann is really not the end of a world, if he can offer 3-4 good seasons.
Barca's players lasting here for 1 cycle of 3-4-5 years is way more realistic than expecting players:
1. to make it at a young age
2. plus, staying here for 10 years

I don't mean anything bad, but a majority of posters here have some weird fixations on:
young signings
young La Masia players
players staying here for 10 years
And people are not willing to listening anything bad about our players.

Cryuff, Rijakard, Guardiola, Enriqué are all in the same class.
Barça de Valverde has not changed class, he has completely left this school. He no longer has this idea as a whole, he no longer has the belief and remains without idea. The victories are so disgusting that he tries a hybrid football by stupidly linking the principles of Barcelona football, become useless once isolated from the idea and principles of Valverdism that make no sense if they are isolated from his own idea.
This Barça is neither defensive nor offensive, he does not have two ideas, he does not acquire either the style of Valverde ...... and yes.
The Valverde era is a failure. Barça for 2 years has not played well, played well, it does not necessarily mean play beautiful, there is a difference between the two.
Beautiful game: it is a coherent collective structure that leaves nothing to chance, a collective structure superior to that of your opponent. Therefore, you can play well in defense and played well.
Playing beautiful is another concept, it depends on your way of seeing football.
The problem is that Barça has played very little football, as shown by its collective structure. We are in the pragmatism of nothingness rather than in a defensive style. There is no coherent principle.
It is an accumulation of inconsistency that gives a tactical mud.
If one notices the successes of Barça, it is not due to the collective system, but to its individualities.
when your system depends on individualism, it's not good

 

[Laplacian]

For the first time I agree with ya

Admit it though, do you think his technique is more convincing than the players I listed? Just look at Sancho ffs

Fuck me his cruyff turns are so ugly.

 

[BBZ8800]

If you have a mirror in your household, I can highly suggest to use it, relatively frequently.This is Dembele's thread, so take his example.
Dembele played a bit in France, a bit in Germany, but those leagues are inferior, so the player has no chance to succeed in LaLiga. That was your assessment.
Is it factual? Is it true? Is it something that is GENERAL?

And it is the moment when you become silent, because neither Umtiti, Lenglet, Griezmann, or De Jong, De Ligt, Chillesen or many others fit into your agenda.
According to you notion even Bbappe would be horrible in LaLiga, simply because the French league is inferior.
So these are the things you should mentally revisit rather often...

You didn't understand my point at all.
Here we go again.

Imagine, if numbers, if a quality of a Croatian league is 40%
French league is at 60%.
La Liga is at 80%.
Champions league is at 95%.

Now, if 2 players, Modric and Halilovic dominate Croatian league, and those two are best players there...
You CAN'T know whether their level of quality is 50% or 99%.
Because even if your level is 50% (Halilovic), you will still be better than your opponents who are at a level 40%.
On the other hand, Modric, who's skills are let's say 99%, will only be the best player in a Croatian league.
So, BOTH Modric and Halil were the best players there. But UNTIL they get to a tougher league, you can't estimate whether they are frauds or real gems.
And then, when they come to a tougher league, let's say La Liga, Halil turned into a fraud, and his skill level (let's say 50%) was good for Croatia (where the skill level is 40%), but he is not good enough for Spain where the skill level is 80%.
On the other hand, Modric was good both in Croatia, Spain and Champions league.

So, my point is NOT that all players from Croatia, Brasil or France are idiots.
My point is that you CAN'T estimate their true level while they are playing against monkey easy opponents.

In that sense, I have said that we don't know anything about Malcom.
All we know is that he was good against monkey level of opponents in Ligue1.
Dembele, he was good in France, which doesn't mean too much. And he was ok in Germany, which is again weaker than Spain.
And yet, on the higher level, all we know for now is that Dembele is lost in Spain (majority of time) and that he sucked in the NT team, where the level is higher.

So, if Dembele were a superstar at Real and Man City, and THEN he failed here, we would say: oh yes, then something is wrong with Barca or our coaches.
But if he was good in a mickey mouse leagues, bad at NT team and average here, you can't say with a certainty: whether HE is average or a coach has ruined him.

[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION], you never cease to amaze. Why the hell do you think we want to get rid of Valverde? Because a top manager is always needed to develop players. Without proper management, young talented players have fewer chances to make it. This should be fucking obvious.

If De Bruyne and Salah wouldn't have moved from Chelsea under Mourinho they would've never made it. Living proof that the problem was not with the players, but with how poorly they were used and managed by the club.

You have players who are not good enough and probably won't make it even under top managers, and players who are good enough and have talent and potential but will still not develop as well if they are managed like crap.

At Barcelona the problem is more often the poor management, simply because we have access to the best talents (one of the benefits of having loads of money and drawing power is that we can bring in the best talents, like Arthur, De Jong, Dembele, talents almost EVERYONE is after). Dembele is one of the best talents. But he won't develop on his own without the club being managed the right way.

You confessed in the past that you didn't watch Barca pre-Pep.
Remember your weird comments about Xavi.
Or at best, you watched Barca here and there under Rijkaard.

So, in terms of a pure first person experience in watching closely a development of Barca's attacking potentials, which players could have you followed since then?

1. Messi, well, he is a Goat
2. Pedro, a very good allrounder. Not the greatest talent, but a smart, hardworking player, who understands our system
3. Alexis. Very low IQ.
4. Neymar
5. Dembele and Malcom from new players.

From La Masia players you could have followed stories of: Bojan, Tello, Deulofeu, Adama, Halil, Sandro, Munir till now.

In terms of players whom you have watched, Dembele imo is the closest to Alexis, except that Dembele is probably more talented.
In terms of IQ, I haven't seen dumbest players than Dembele and Alexis.
And still, I don't understand how on Earth is Dembele supposed to lead our team with his IQ. But, we'll see how will that idea develop in upcoming years.

Regarding my eye test and first hand experience with watching Barca, I have seen way more similar talents than Dembele who came and failed miserably from this or that reason.
1. Simao Sabrosa, Portugal, the new Figo
2. Geovanni Deiberson, Brasil, the most expensive fail till the recent years
3. Ricardo Quaresma, Portugal, another the new Figo
4. Saviola, Argentina, the new Maradona

On the other hand, I have watched lots of successful stories, and those players had different mental and technical skills than the guys who failed:
1. R9, aged 18
2. Rivaldo, aged 25
3. Ronaldinho, aged 23
4. Etoo, aged 23
5. Messi

What is similar to all these players who made it here?
They were all performing from a day1.
1. R9, aged 18 scored 47 goals in 49 matches, lol.
2. 23 years old Ronaldinho was a one man show, a leader, a best player. He led Barca from the 12 the place in 2003 to almost winning a title in his first season.
In his 2nd and 3rd season he turned into Ballon D Or players and won a CL as our best player.
3. Rivaldo aged 25 turned into our key player from the first season, scoring 28 goals and turning into a leader with Figo.
4. Etoo scored 25 La liga goals aged 23 and was the best player in our team with Ronaldinho.
5. Messi, well, he helped us winning a CL in his debut season, turning into a menace from the day1

What is similar to all these players, who were true generational talents?
1. they had technical talents
2. none of them was dumb
3. they clicked with Barca from the day 1 and started to produce results from the day1
Or another interesting fact: all of them were starters from their NT team from the earliest age.
So, they both performed well at Barca and were leaders of their NT teams.

And then, you have a mighty Dembele.
Injured, lost, injured, lost, injured, lost, playing good for 2 Months, injured, lost.
Plus, he is miles from being a starter for France.

I mean, there is a chance that Dembele will suddenly turn his career.
But:
1. he will need to stay injury free
2. and even if he will stay injury free: he will still be a bad fit for possession type of teams, he will still have low IQ, and very bad first touch and passes for standards of Barca's attackers.

Regarding your comment about coaches, and how poor Dembele is stagnating due to EV:
1. why is Dembele not a starter under Deschamps either?
2. how come that Pep wasn't able to help to: Bojan and Alexis, for example? Why Bojan failed, even though he had Pep who had 120% trust in him?
3. Quaresma, he had Rijkaard who developed Messi, Xavi and Iniesta. Yet, Rijkaard lost nerves with Quaresma only after 1 season because Quaresma was too young, and too dumb. He didn't want to listen and his talent meant nothing in those circumstances. And the time showed that Rijkaard was right. Quaresma's talent was never enough due to his IQ and a problematic personality.
4. Simao Sabrosa. The new Figo. He played under Van Gaal, and Van Gaal wasn't able to do anything out of him. Because he was not good enough.
On the other hand, Van Gaal developed: Kluivert, Davids, Seedorf, Bergkamp, Overmars, Frank and Ronald De Boer, Van Der Sar.
So, with some players, Van Gal was able to do wonders (he even recognized Xavi and started to play him from the age 18), yet, with some players you can't do too much.
Sabrosa was not dumb btw. He was just slow and not good enough for the highest level.
5. Saviola, hailed as the new Maradona. Extremely expensive signing. Something like 150M today.
He was coached by Rexach, Van Gaal, Antic and Rijkaard. And none of them managed to turn him into a Barca's level of a player.
So, was it coach's fault of Saviola's?
6. Geovanni, coached by Ferrer and Rexach. But he was never goo enough.

Btw, all these players NEVER proved later in their careers that Barca was wrong in their estimation.
So, NO COACH at Barca managed to turn them into superstars, and NO COACH in other clubs managed to do that.
So, even if Barca had weaker coaches in Serra Ferrer and Rexach, those players would have turned into superstars later in their career, right?

For majority of you guys, imo, you didn't get "a fine tuning skill" yet.
Till now, you, DonAndres, Konan, Barca22 and majority of guys are quite predictable:
Rakitic: not good enough
Rabiot: not good enough
Yet, any player with a nice technique and good off the ball movement: he looks very good.
The problem is, imo, among these players with good technique and off the ball movement, you didn't develop skills for saying: this guy is not good enough for Barca.
I mean, just check majority of posts on Barca's forum:
Rabiot (doesn't have our DNA): majority will say: not good enough. Fine, you all agree here.
But then:
Puig, he has Barca's DNA: majority will say: he is the future.
Alena, Barca's DNA=he is the future, he is good enough. He "has" it.
Oriol: the same.
Dembele, the same.
Arthur, he has nice passes and is press resistant=he "has" it.
Malcom= he probably has it.

And this is not about workhorses versus technical players.
This is about seeing who are real gems among technical players, and who are not. (Dude Tekkers will now say: you said that Coutinho will be good. Well, I had faith in him. He disappointed. But he was not dumb, he had chances to make it here. Unlike Dembele, imo).
I personally loved R9, Rivaldo, Ronaldinho, Etoo, Messi from their first game.
I never thought: Ronaldinho is dumb, Etoo is a crap, we should sell him.
But with Dembele, after 2-3 matches, I personally had a feeling: wtf? This guy is supposed to be our future? If so, our future is bleak compared to the last 20 years...

Anyway, Sergei, imo, you are focusing too much on how Dembele is stagnating due to EV.
While I am not denying that he could be better under a different coach, still Pep wasn't able to help to Bojan and Alexis. Rijkaard (or anyone) couldn't do anything with Quaresma. Van Gaal couldn't help to Sabrosa etc.
Remember how uncle Flo said that Dembele is not suited for Barca. Some guys here probably thought: Flo is jealous, lol.
What is that was a honest comment and estimation? The same as how Rabiot is probably not suitable for TikiTaka also.

I remember when I was a teen in 90s and when I have seen R9, all you could have said back then was: wow. This kid is just wow.
On the other hand, on majority of days when I see Dembele's movement, first touch, sloppy dribbles, sloppy finishing, all I can't think of is: wtf is this shit?
Ok, Dembele was good for 2-3 Months here. But also, what's up with his being rusty for the next 2-3 Months after every injury? I have never seen a player who takes THAT LONG to get into a decent form for such a long time.

A reminder on happier days when "generational talents" played like aliens from the day1, aged 18.
And not current "generational talents" who play well for 2 Months out of 24 Months spent here, and who struggle with a first touch and simple passes:

 

[jairzinho]

Is this the same deluded BBZ that thought Valverde was the new Cruyff?
I see you're back to letting your imagination get the better of you.

 

[serghei]

[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION], my only weird comment about Xavi was that he wasn't world class at 22. May have been wrong about that one. Which is the only 'negative' thing I've ever said about Xavi.

I've never said I didn't watch Barcelona pre-Pep.

I get it with you. No youngster is every good enough until they are.

 

[Dinho10]

Reading BBZ posts is making my head hurt

 

[Cule4life]

You didn't understand my point at all.
Here we go again.

Imagine, if numbers, if a quality of a Croatian league is 40%
French league is at 60%.
La Liga is at 80%.
Champions league is at 95%.

What is the quality of EPL where "he'll be the 2nd best player after Messi" Coutinho played?

Admit it though, do you think his technique is more convincing than the players I listed? Just look at Sancho ffs

Fuck me his cruyff turns are so ugly.

He has a lot of talent. Just watch him in his Dortmund days. He's not progressing here cos of Valverde while Sancho is playing under Favre.

 

[Potroh]

My point is that you CAN'T estimate their true level while they are playing against monkey easy opponents.

Yes, I get that interpretation. The problem is that it is NOT valid.

If Mbappe played in LaLiga, he wouldn't have scored 32 goals (specially because Neymar was injured for almost 4 months). Yes that is probable.
But just as I've mentioned it 3-4 days ago, the QUALITY of a player can be judged by the TEAM he plays in and NOT the "monkey easy opponents".
Mbappe plays with Neymar, with Di Maria, with Cavani and Verratti, thus his qualities are verified by his OWN TEAMMATES and not by the easy opponents.

Hence if X Y or Z play in a strong team but in a relatively weak league, than his team matters and not the opponents.

Till today some people consider Pele to be the GOAT of this game. I've seen him alive quite a few times and I subjectively think he wasn't the best ever, but it's subjective.
But he scored 5643894576 goals against usually bad Latin American opponents only, he never played in Europe and had never been tested elsewhere, apart from the few WCs. He was good in 1958, great in 1962, bad and injured in 1966 and shown nothing in 1970.
Still he is considered to be GOAT.

But if he was good in a mickey mouse leagues, bad at NT team and average here...

He was good, because he was good, he was bought because he was good. He was good in the CONTEXT of his talents, regardless the league.
The same league gave you Umtiti, Lenglet, perhaps Griezmann too, it's not the ground for objective comparisons.
In his NT he only played after his major injury, which hardly counts.

Otherwise please stop blaming any player on his own injuries. It's not fair.

 

[Maxim4]

@ BBZ8800 and his followers.
I'm still waiting for the same words, the same parasitic and provocative paragraphs
"Dembélé Qfaible, unhealthy spirit Dembélé, such a player will fail here like Alexis, Ricardo ... excetera excetera ...
You can not even debate why Barca Ernesto fails every time he is outside Spain.
all your analyzes are based blindly on personal attacks, sometimes even insults and several copies pasted, repetitive sentences without much need for us who want to understand something interesting but it is not the case.
Historically, defensive styles have arrived to fill a gap in individual talents.
If you have a force three times greater than your opponent's strength and you try to put forward a defensive idea, it means that you are a coward.


We should give you the gold medal of the role of unhealthy spirit Q weak.

 

[Maxim4]

still Dembele's fault. if he had not missed this great opportunity ...
it hurts !

 

[CatalinR10]

we lost because he didn't play tonight. It's all his fault.


disgusting.

 

[FinBarcelonafan]

We lost because we didn't have Dembele.

 

[Tekkers]

i definitely underestimated his importance. thought the team would get it together in his absence. but they ended up looking like complete shit ever since. even with the "GOAT"

 

[El Guaje]

i definitely underestimated his importance. thought the team would get it together in his absence. but they ended up looking like complete shit ever since. even with the "GOAT"

Welp get used to watch him riding the bench and getting the Malcom treatment when Griez joins and plays together with Suarez and Messi.

 

[Total-Football]

yeah he didnt contribute to the loss ..because he doesnt contribute to anything !!! win or loss.. he is injured 60% of the times, especially crucial times. so we are left with 40% where he plays like an amateur. Pathetic effort to use the loses to defend this 150 Millions deal.