11 - Ousmane Dembélé - V1

[Lelouch vi Britannia]

man just used fifa ultimate team stats as reference

Well, at least they're stats :bbz:

 

[Kohe321]

Messicam asked the same, I'll just reply here.
Ok, fine. So finally we agree that for current Dembele, he is not too useful in matches against Chelsea, AM and similar, AS LONG as we are defending and we don't need to win and as long as we are allowed to play it safe any rely on Messi's magic.

About smaller matches, like against Girona, he played there.
But, I have wrote about "levels" of different matches a few days ago.

Level1:
The easiest matches: CDR matches, and home La liga matches against midtable and bottomtable teams
Level 2:
Home La Liga matches against top 4 teams and ALL away La liga matches
Level 3:
Champions league, knockout round matches against Juve, AM, Bayern, Real, Chelsea, Psg

In matches at level 1, basically we can play with any formation and all out attacking.
Here you can play 433 with Messi-Suarez-Dembele in attack and with Coutinho/Iniesta behind them
Usually we won't suffer since opponents are very scared at Camp Nou.
In those matches all players look like world class players (Roberto as a midfielder, Bartra as a beast CB, Rafinha, even Denis).
Also, in matches like this, there is a higher chance that players like Denis/Dembele will shine more than Gomes/Paulinho, because in these matches=it is all about attack, attack, attack.
So, I don't mind playing Dembele instead of Gomes in these matches.

But.. then we are coming to a level 2 of matches. Away La Liga matches, home matches against Sevilla, Atletico and similar.
A current Dembele is NOT ready for those matches.
EV wants to play 442 and he doesn't like classic wingers.
EV would be the happiest to have 4 cloned Rakitics in midfield at LM, CM, CDM and RM and Messi and Suarez in attack.
4 Rakitics would regain possession all the time, pass the ball to Messi and out of 50 actions, Messi would score 2 goals, we would concede 0 because of 4 Rakitics in midfield and we would win majority of matches with 1:0 or 2:0.
Oh, wait. That is EXACTLY what is happening under Valverde.
So, you see, this is his gameplan: have strong midfield in terms of defense and physique and rely in attack on 2 players.
As seen this season, it works awesome in terms of results (La Liga, CDR, CL for now).
In these kind of matches, this will sound harsh, but a CURRENT Gomes/Paulinho can offer more (in EV's system) than a CURRENT, raw, rookie, lost kid Dembele.

On a level 3, Gomes and Paulinho are way ahead of a current Dembele.

So, again, I agree with you that Dembele should play and integrate in matches of level 1 and in some away easier matches of level 2.
But remember, playing vs Girona at home is not the same as playing vs Las Palmas away.



If I will just write my estimation in numbers about defending and physique, people will say that I am pulling numbers from my ass.
So, feel free to open any football game like FIFA, PES, Football Manager games etc.
A lot of people work on those games and their goal is to create players in those games whose skills will match the skills of real players.

So, if you look at skills from Paulinho, Gomes and Dembele in any of those video games or manager games, you will see that in EVERY game (programmed by neutral people, I guess), Paulinho and Gomes always have way better defensive skills than Dembele.
Some guys like Henias are constantly saying how Gomes and Paulinho are equally as bad in defense as Dembele.
I am still not sure if he is trolling or he is dead serious about that.
Dembele CAN'T DEFEND. His defending is worse than defending of Denis Suarez.

Anyway, some skills:
http://www.futhead.com/17/clubs/fc-barcelona/

And now, for example, defensive skills of our starters:
Suarez 60
Messi 45
Neymar 48

Iniesta 59-70
Rakitic 59
Busquets 83
Gomes 71-75
Roberto (as a midfielder) 67-75

And then, for example: Dembele:
http://www.futhead.com/17/clubs/borussia-dortmund/

His defending as a RM is 50-54-60

Or if you want to see defensive skills more in depth:
Gomes:
http://www.futhead.com/17/players/60086/andre-gomes/
Paulinho:
http://www.futhead.com/18/players/49803/paulinho/
Dembele:
http://www.futhead.com/17/players/61031/ousmane-dembele/

Interceptions:
Gomes 80
Paulinho 80
Dembele 48

Heading:
Pualinho 82
Gomes 72
Dembele 62

Marking:
Paulinho 79
Gomes 68
Dembele 65

Standing tackle:
Gomes 81
Paulinho 80
Dembele 57

Sliding tackle:
Paulinho 74
Gomes 67
Dembele 65

In all 5 defensive skills, Dembele is the weakest all the time.

Or, when I claim that Denis is horrible in defending, it seems that I am not alone and that creators of these games think the same:
http://www.futhead.com/17/players/27588/denis-suarez/

Interceptions 48
Heading 44
Marking 37
Standing tackle 46
Sliding tackle 42

Or, what EV also like, physical skills:
Strength:
Gomes 88
Paulinho 70
Dembele 66
Denis 55

Aggression:
Gomes 84
Paulinho 70
Dembele 70
Denis 47

So, again, my post will sound very weird since everyone hate Gomes and Paulinho, but they offer (according to creators of multiple popular videogames) way more than Dembele/Denis in terms of defending, tackling, marking, interceptions, physical strength and aggression.
And once again, since EV's tactics is to NOT CONCEDE, get a midfield balance and pass the ball to Messi and Suarez who will usually score 1-2 goals on each match (and we won't concede any) and that's it.

EV thinks that we have enough of an attacking power and that midfield and defensive balance brought by workhorses is more important than dribbles which Dembele is bringing.
But as said above, in matches of level 1 (La Liga Camp Nou matches), attack is more important than balance, so we will usually see both Coutinho-Dembele and Messi-Suarez on a field.
But from what we have seen till now from EV, in away La liga matches and in ALL tougher, physical matches, his preferred lineup will be: Iniesta-Busquets-Rakitic-Gomes/Paulinho, or now against Chelsea: Gomes-Busquets-Rakitic-Paulinho/Vidal.

** If I have wrote something wrong from this FIFA page, my bad.
I haven't played these games in the last 10 years, so maybe I posted something wrong.

But anyway, maybe we'll see less posts: Dembele/Denis are the same in defense as Paulinho/Gomes.
Gomes sucks in attack, but he CAN from time to time regain possession, intercept some passes and he brings some physical presence.
While, a current Dembele is ALL ABOUT attack, attack, attack.
Which was good in Dortmund when he was their Messi (free role). But in Barca, where Messi doesn't defend, where Suarez also isn't defending, and where Coutinho/Iniesta are weak in defense (Iniesta due to age, Coutinho due to his weak defensive skills and weaker physique), playing with these 3 plus Dembele is a huge risk against bigger opponents since then we would have 4 players who don't defend or who are weak in defending.
Gomes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFx_EK8FeWs

I tried to look at Youtube, but couldn't find clips of Dembele defending.
I know, he is an attacker, but in EV's team he will need to learn to defend as long as Messi and Luis are in a team and as long as they aren't defending.

For the way how EV has set up his team, Paulinho and Gomes aren't as bad as people here are saying.
Results are proving that also.
(And no, it can't be ONLY because of Messi. We had MSN last season and we sucked horribly in the last 18 Months. EV and his style brought balance and way more points.)



Gomes-Busi-Raki-Paulinho
Or:
Gomes-Busi-Raki-Vidal
Or:
Paulinho-Busi-Raki-Vidal

That's it.

 

[Obiaseti]

Chelsea's not the best time to experiment with him. We'll most likely be facing a packed defense. Knowing Valverde we'll probably line up with Gomes Busi Raki and Vidal and aim to control the game and get a 0-0. I can see BBZ's point tbh (not the FIFA/PES/video games part but the other part). Dembele doesn't fit EV's current gameplan. Shoehorning him now is too much of a gamble in his eyes. We aren't going to try super hard to score. We don't need to. Priority will be to not concede. If Messi gives us a bigger lead through individual skill then he may make a late token appearance.

 

[Lelouch vi Britannia]

Chelsea's not the best time to experiment with him. We'll most likely be facing a packed defense. Knowing Valverde we'll probably line up with Gomes Busi Raki and Vidal and aim to control the game and get a 0-0. I can see BBZ's point tbh (not the FIFA/PES/video games part but the other part). Dembele doesn't fit EV's current gameplan. Shoehorning him now is too much of a gamble in his eyes. We aren't going to try super hard to score. We don't need to. Priority will be to not concede. If Messi gives us a bigger lead through individual skill then he may make a late token appearance.

Should have given him match practice before then. What, can Valverde not afford the "risk" of playing him over Vidal against the mighty Las Palmas?

 

[Maxim4]

He is not warming because he is unhappy with his last-minute match against Las Palmas.

That's why Valverde used Gomes.

For now, the club is trying to end the incident because for them, Dembélé is the present and the future. Valverde is not an idiot, he is aware of it.

He will play the final against espanyol.

 

[Ken_rosseneri]

LOL Vidal ahead of him. You're crazy.

I don't give a fuck what's Valverde about. Dembele was payed 150M and he is young star. Barcelona should play 4-3-3. If he's gonna continue this shit then he can fuck off out of the club even if he wins 2 trophies. I'll give him next season so he can change formation and tactics.

Barcelona always risk. Barcelona isn't afraid of anyone. Valverde is acting like this is fucking Bilbao. Man up Ernesto. Give kid a proper chance.

Like I've said in my other posts I think the word you're looking for is COWARD.. Valverde is a coward.. with iniesta injured let's see if the fraud plays Dembele against Chelsea

 

[Ken_rosseneri]

Chelsea's not the best time to experiment with him. We'll most likely be facing a packed defense. Knowing Valverde we'll probably line up with Gomes Busi Raki and Vidal and aim to control the game and get a 0-0. I can see BBZ's point tbh (not the FIFA/PES/video games part but the other part). Dembele doesn't fit EV's current gameplan. Shoehorning him now is too much of a gamble in his eyes. We aren't going to try super hard to score. We don't need to. Priority will be to not concede. If Messi gives us a bigger lead through individual skill then he may make a late token appearance.

Whose mans is this? We can't experiment with Dembele but we can experiment with Vidal over n over again despite useless performances.. same goes for Gomes.. I personally want Valverde out.. he's a coward.. is it if Chelsea score through a corner that he'll want to bring in Dembele n put more pressure on him? Fucking ridiculous

 

[Ken_rosseneri]

Messicam asked the same, I'll just reply here.
Ok, fine. So finally we agree that for current Dembele, he is not too useful in matches against Chelsea, AM and similar, AS LONG as we are defending and we don't need to win and as long as we are allowed to play it safe any rely on Messi's magic.

About smaller matches, like against Girona, he played there.
But, I have wrote about "levels" of different matches a few days ago.

Level1:
The easiest matches: CDR matches, and home La liga matches against midtable and bottomtable teams
Level 2:
Home La Liga matches against top 4 teams and ALL away La liga matches
Level 3:
Champions league, knockout round matches against Juve, AM, Bayern, Real, Chelsea, Psg

In matches at level 1, basically we can play with any formation and all out attacking.
Here you can play 433 with Messi-Suarez-Dembele in attack and with Coutinho/Iniesta behind them
Usually we won't suffer since opponents are very scared at Camp Nou.
In those matches all players look like world class players (Roberto as a midfielder, Bartra as a beast CB, Rafinha, even Denis).
Also, in matches like this, there is a higher chance that players like Denis/Dembele will shine more than Gomes/Paulinho, because in these matches=it is all about attack, attack, attack.
So, I don't mind playing Dembele instead of Gomes in these matches.

But.. then we are coming to a level 2 of matches. Away La Liga matches, home matches against Sevilla, Atletico and similar.
A current Dembele is NOT ready for those matches.
EV wants to play 442 and he doesn't like classic wingers.
EV would be the happiest to have 4 cloned Rakitics in midfield at LM, CM, CDM and RM and Messi and Suarez in attack.
4 Rakitics would regain possession all the time, pass the ball to Messi and out of 50 actions, Messi would score 2 goals, we would concede 0 because of 4 Rakitics in midfield and we would win majority of matches with 1:0 or 2:0.
Oh, wait. That is EXACTLY what is happening under Valverde.
So, you see, this is his gameplan: have strong midfield in terms of defense and physique and rely in attack on 2 players.
As seen this season, it works awesome in terms of results (La Liga, CDR, CL for now).
In these kind of matches, this will sound harsh, but a CURRENT Gomes/Paulinho can offer more (in EV's system) than a CURRENT, raw, rookie, lost kid Dembele.

On a level 3, Gomes and Paulinho are way ahead of a current Dembele.

So, again, I agree with you that Dembele should play and integrate in matches of level 1 and in some away easier matches of level 2.
But remember, playing vs Girona at home is not the same as playing vs Las Palmas away.



If I will just write my estimation in numbers about defending and physique, people will say that I am pulling numbers from my ass.
So, feel free to open any football game like FIFA, PES, Football Manager games etc.
A lot of people work on those games and their goal is to create players in those games whose skills will match the skills of real players.

So, if you look at skills from Paulinho, Gomes and Dembele in any of those video games or manager games, you will see that in EVERY game (programmed by neutral people, I guess), Paulinho and Gomes always have way better defensive skills than Dembele.
Some guys like Henias are constantly saying how Gomes and Paulinho are equally as bad in defense as Dembele.
I am still not sure if he is trolling or he is dead serious about that.
Dembele CAN'T DEFEND. His defending is worse than defending of Denis Suarez.

Anyway, some skills:
http://www.futhead.com/17/clubs/fc-barcelona/

And now, for example, defensive skills of our starters:
Suarez 60
Messi 45
Neymar 48

Iniesta 59-70
Rakitic 59
Busquets 83
Gomes 71-75
Roberto (as a midfielder) 67-75

And then, for example: Dembele:
http://www.futhead.com/17/clubs/borussia-dortmund/

His defending as a RM is 50-54-60

Or if you want to see defensive skills more in depth:
Gomes:
http://www.futhead.com/17/players/60086/andre-gomes/
Paulinho:
http://www.futhead.com/18/players/49803/paulinho/
Dembele:
http://www.futhead.com/17/players/61031/ousmane-dembele/

Interceptions:
Gomes 80
Paulinho 80
Dembele 48

Heading:
Pualinho 82
Gomes 72
Dembele 62

Marking:
Paulinho 79
Gomes 68
Dembele 65

Standing tackle:
Gomes 81
Paulinho 80
Dembele 57

Sliding tackle:
Paulinho 74
Gomes 67
Dembele 65

In all 5 defensive skills, Dembele is the weakest all the time.

Or, when I claim that Denis is horrible in defending, it seems that I am not alone and that creators of these games think the same:
http://www.futhead.com/17/players/27588/denis-suarez/

Interceptions 48
Heading 44
Marking 37
Standing tackle 46
Sliding tackle 42

Or, what EV also like, physical skills:
Strength:
Gomes 88
Paulinho 70
Dembele 66
Denis 55

Aggression:
Gomes 84
Paulinho 70
Dembele 70
Denis 47

So, again, my post will sound very weird since everyone hate Gomes and Paulinho, but they offer (according to creators of multiple popular videogames) way more than Dembele/Denis in terms of defending, tackling, marking, interceptions, physical strength and aggression.
And once again, since EV's tactics is to NOT CONCEDE, get a midfield balance and pass the ball to Messi and Suarez who will usually score 1-2 goals on each match (and we won't concede any) and that's it.

EV thinks that we have enough of an attacking power and that midfield and defensive balance brought by workhorses is more important than dribbles which Dembele is bringing.
But as said above, in matches of level 1 (La Liga Camp Nou matches), attack is more important than balance, so we will usually see both Coutinho-Dembele and Messi-Suarez on a field.
But from what we have seen till now from EV, in away La liga matches and in ALL tougher, physical matches, his preferred lineup will be: Iniesta-Busquets-Rakitic-Gomes/Paulinho, or now against Chelsea: Gomes-Busquets-Rakitic-Paulinho/Vidal.

** If I have wrote something wrong from this FIFA page, my bad.
I haven't played these games in the last 10 years, so maybe I posted something wrong.

But anyway, maybe we'll see less posts: Dembele/Denis are the same in defense as Paulinho/Gomes.
Gomes sucks in attack, but he CAN from time to time regain possession, intercept some passes and he brings some physical presence.
While, a current Dembele is ALL ABOUT attack, attack, attack.
Which was good in Dortmund when he was their Messi (free role). But in Barca, where Messi doesn't defend, where Suarez also isn't defending, and where Coutinho/Iniesta are weak in defense (Iniesta due to age, Coutinho due to his weak defensive skills and weaker physique), playing with these 3 plus Dembele is a huge risk against bigger opponents since then we would have 4 players who don't defend or who are weak in defending.
Gomes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFx_EK8FeWs

I tried to look at Youtube, but couldn't find clips of Dembele defending.
I know, he is an attacker, but in EV's team he will need to learn to defend as long as Messi and Luis are in a team and as long as they aren't defending.

For the way how EV has set up his team, Paulinho and Gomes aren't as bad as people here are saying.
Results are proving that also.
(And no, it can't be ONLY because of Messi. We had MSN last season and we sucked horribly in the last 18 Months. EV and his style brought balance and way more points.)



Gomes-Busi-Raki-Paulinho
Or:
Gomes-Busi-Raki-Vidal
Or:
Paulinho-Busi-Raki-Vidal

That's it.

What the actual fuck is this??? Hahahaha.. ridiculous line up..

 

[BBZ8800]

man just used fifa ultimate team stats as reference

Don't even bother to response to that nonsense.

Find a better way to test someone's defensive ability except pulling stats and opinions from the ass like: Dembele is equal in defending to Paulinho and Gomes?

Or stats which say: Dembele had 2 tackles and Gomes had 3 tackles, which doesn't say too much about marking, tackling, making a pressure etc.

When you'll find a better idea to test those things, I'll write another post.
Till then there is no point to even reading posts where people claim that Dembele defends equally as Gomes or Paulinho.

What the actual fuck is this??? Hahahaha.. ridiculous line up..

That's how we'll play. Ridiculous or not for you.
Iniesta is injured.
Coutinho can't play.
Dembele has years and years or learning.

 

[vlad]

Whose mans is this? We can't experiment with Dembele but we can experiment with Vidal over n over again despite useless performances.. same goes for Gomes.. I personally want Valverde out.. he's a coward.. is it if Chelsea score through a corner that he'll want to bring in Dembele n put more pressure on him? Fucking ridiculous

Poor dembele, cant handle the pressure


I will enjoy in your every comment when barca go through without dembele in first 11

Dembele's army on this forum is ridiculous, like he is messi level of player and match changer and not 20 year old talented player who was injuried for majority of season so far, when valverde played him, guy looked like scared chicken who cant even pick right boots, barca is doing good without him, valverde knows his job and he will play him when he is ready

 

[Jägermeister]

man just used fifa ultimate team stats as reference

Hard to take any further argument seriously after that.

 

[denn]

He can't find anything that Gomes offers better than Dembele so he gotta find FIFA stats LOL.

Gomes is AVERAGE defender. That's it. He won't make a difference in that segment what so ever. Dembele ahead of him all day long.

 

[Alik]

Poor dembele, cant handle the pressure


I will enjoy in your every comment when barca go through without dembele in first 11

Dembele's army on this forum is ridiculous, like he is messi level of player and match changer and not 20 year old talented player who was injuried for majority of season so far, when valverde played him, guy looked like scared chicken who cant even pick right boots, barca is doing good without him, valverde knows his job and he will play him when he is ready

On the other hand, there's another army treating him like he's worse than Vidal.

 

[jamrock]

If playing a player you paid 140m for is a risk or experiment then someone somewhere fucked up.

 

[Joan]

If playing a player you paid 140m for is a risk or experiment then someone somewhere fucked up.

He's 20. Of couse its a risk.