11 - Ousmane Dembélé - V1

[vlad]

He wasnt playing the better football.
Where did i say they dont have to fight? U just throw out some sentences an jump from a to b as i said before. And then u even say my arguing makes no sense. Pretty funny.
U bring up anithee example with bojan urself...
Pep is someone trying to develop young players. Valverde is definatly not. At least not when he has experienced good players on that position.
Pep gave them many game time even when he had them. Ofc some other coaches are doing this as well. But when this is not playing them to develop what is it called in your opininion.
Im still waiting for the definition of what u said in your initial post....

But what valverde has to do with pep? Totaly different coaches, la liga during pep days was weak, today is different story, you have strong atletico and real, and you cant afford much slips, anyway its not okay expecting every coach after pep to be similar to pep, that was another time and pep had best squad ever


Edit: look pep at city, spending like crazy, valverde had paulinho, gomes, rakitic, busquets and 34 year old iniesta, from january he have coutinho

 

[Danic]

[MENTION=19742]vlad[/MENTION]
Ofc u are right. This discussion started with a false Statement by jamdev. Thats all i was refering to and arguing with.
Yep he had the best squad and still he was trxing to integrate young players
We got a bit out of line with the discussion. So lets stop it here and back on dembele

Still i think he should get a bit more game time. I agree on the point not brining him vs Atletico for some reasons.
But there were other matches where he could have easily gotten more minutes. And i stand by my point that i dont like how valverde is integrataing new players. And Game time is not the only point...

 

[dickbutt]

Apparently the board is unhappy with his off pitch behavior.

 

[FCBfan22]

Apparently the board is unhappy with his off pitch behavior.

That is actually quite old news. They were very unhappy with what he did during recovery months during his 2 injuries. Junk food and games. That was widely reported from credible sources. The trip to Marocco on a day off was blown up by AS.

I partly blame the veterans in our squad for not stepping up and help him to learn how to live like a Barca player. From what I have seen, Alba, Suarez and Iniesta are speaking to him much more since his 2nd injury.

I'm a bit dissapointed in Umtiti, because he should be doing more of that.

 

[henias]

Sure and for that reason you just do not play him in a game of that magnitude if he is not ready. Either 0-0 at home vs Atletico or later holding 1-0 you will rely on someone who is more experience and merged into team.
It is pretty obvious ever since his move he has been kinda starstruck on the club and surroundings and has due to that had a very difficult start. Gomes didnt ruin the game or lost the game for us, apart from some brainfarts in attack, he was decent, no one can tell how it could have been with Dembele.

Well no shit, he can never be experienced if he doesnt even start in smaller games, if that's the case Gomes will forever be the "experienced" one. Even Denis or Deulofeu is more "experienced" in this case. Have to make a change and trust young talents more If not this the team will never break away from the same status as last season. Gomes "didnt ruin the game" because u based it on the scoreline but it doesnt work this way. Was the worst player on the field, failed all 4 of his dribbles and only won 5 of his 13 attempts of winning the ball back and absolutely squandered a clear chance at goal. (Not his first time at all). I remember Denis failing a similar shot, got the boot and was never seen again.

Which means he lost the ball when attempting to dribble and didnt manage to win the ball back. So how will this bring any good and he never was seen better than any of his other appearances this season. If Dembele was given 40 games with this sort of performances, he would have been labelled as a "failed product" straight away. Gomes is a good lad, but this is the hard truth.

Same thing when we buy Griezmann or Arthur. The first few games they start is gonna look ugly, theres no way they are gonna look better than say Suarez or Iniesta without consistently playing.

 

[LeeRomeno]

Well no shit, he can never be experienced if he doesnt even start in smaller games, if that's the case Gomes will forever be the "experienced" one. Even Denis or Deulofeu is more "experienced" in this case. Have to make a change and trust young talents more If not this the team will never break away from the same status as last season. Gomes "didnt ruin the game" because u based it on the scoreline but it doesnt work this way. Was the worst player on the field, failed all 4 of his dribbles and only won 5 of his 13 attempts of winning the ball back and absolutely squandered a clear chance at goal. (Not his first time at all). I remember Denis failing a similar shot, got the boot and was never seen again.

Which means he lost the ball when attempting to dribble and didnt manage to win the ball back. So how will this bring any good and he never was seen better than any of his other appearances this season. If Dembele was given 40 games with this sort of performances, he would have been labelled as a "failed product" straight away. Gomes is a good lad, but this is the hard truth.

Same thing when we buy Griezmann or Arthur. The first few games they start is gonna look ugly, theres no way they are gonna look better than say Suarez or Iniesta without consistently playing.

Where does this impatience come from? There will be plenty of chances coming up once it is clear La Liga is ours, it will also be better for Dembele to play in games that are not as crucial as Atletico game. I would not be surprised at all if he played vs Malaga and got time in Chelsea game as well. Yes trust is important, but it is also important to earn that trust as a player and it is so obvious from Dembeles playtime so far that he is simply too eager to impress. We are talking about a 20 year old future talent, who does not need to become a regular especially considering his bad luck this season.

Regarding Gomes, he was different player in autumn and now he is completely back to how he played under Lucho, nervous and without any confidence. Remember that he also didnt have any gametime for a month. Once again I am sure majority of fans would not be sad if he will be sold, but our squad is as it is. I explained the choices Valverde had and why Gomes was best out of the bad choices in that particular game and moment. Does not mean it will be the case in long term.

Have some patience and see how things actually turn out instead of being the prophet of doom.

 

[JamDav1982]

[MENTION=19742]vlad[/MENTION]
Ofc u are right. This discussion started with a false Statement by jamdev. Thats all i was refering to and arguing with.
Yep he had the best squad and still he was trxing to integrate young players
We got a bit out of line with the discussion. So lets stop it here and back on dembele

Still i think he should get a bit more game time. I agree on the point not brining him vs Atletico for some reasons.
But there were other matches where he could have easily gotten more minutes. And i stand by my point that i dont like how valverde is integrataing new players. And Game time is not the only point...

No the false statement came from you is how it started.

Pep doesnt play players that are not performing from one game to the next just to develop them as you made out.

Name one player he has done that with if it is the case. Dont say Busi again as he wasnt.

 

[henias]

Where does this impatience come from? There will be plenty of chances coming up once it is clear La Liga is ours, it will also be better for Dembele to play in games that are not as crucial as Atletico game. I would not be surprised at all if he played vs Malaga and got time in Chelsea game as well. Yes trust is important, but it is also important to earn that trust as a player and it is so obvious from Dembeles playtime so far that he is simply too eager to impress. We are talking about a 20 year old future talent, who does not need to become a regular especially considering his bad luck this season.

Regarding Gomes, he was different player in autumn and now he is completely back to how he played under Lucho, nervous and without any confidence. Remember that he also didnt have any gametime for a month. Once again I am sure majority of fans would not be sad if he will be sold, but our squad is as it is. I explained the choices Valverde had and why Gomes was best out of the bad choices in that particular game and moment. Does not mean it will be the case in long term.

Have some patience and see how things actually turn out instead of being the prophet of doom.

It isn't impatience, it's just game time vs the smaller teams plus he is fully fit now. Eibar and Las Palmas are clear to play him majority of the minutes but didnt at all while Iniesta or Suarez could have been rested. Again, not asking him to play every game.

It isnt doom when it is trying to strengthen the squad as a whole and make use of everyone's energy and fitness more properly. Dembele could come in handy this season and u might never know. Limiting your options is more of actually more of a negative and narrow way of thinking.

 

[LeeRomeno]

It isn't impatience, it's just game time vs the smaller teams plus he is fully fit now. Eibar and Las Palmas are clear to play him majority of the minutes but didnt at all while Iniesta or Suarez could have been rested. Again, not asking him to play every game.

It isnt doom when it is trying to strengthen the squad as a whole and make use of everyone's energy and fitness more properly. Dembele could come in handy this season and u might never know. Limiting your options is more of actually more of a negative and narrow way of thinking.

Yes and noone is saying opposite, doom is how you talk about it, like it is set in stone and never will change, not considering the circumstances that have caused it in the first place. Also it completely puzzles me how fans can totally ignore all the backround that goes around player selection. How can you possibly know how Dembele or anyone else has performed in practices for example vs the likes of Gomes or Paulinho.
He did play vs Las Palmas? Also maybe he isnt even fit to play 90 minutes, he has been out for most of season...

 

[MessiCam]

Yes and noone is saying opposite, doom is how you talk about it, like it is set in stone and never will change, not considering the circumstances that have caused it in the first place. Also it completely puzzles me how fans can totally ignore all the backround that goes around player selection. How can you possibly know how Dembele or anyone else has performed in practices for example vs the likes of Gomes or Paulinho.
He did play vs Las Palmas? Also maybe he isnt even fit to play 90 minutes, he has been out for most of season...

Because Valverde has publicly stated that Dembélé is training well but he must prove himself in competition.

How is he supposed to do that if the only competition minutes he is getting is being subbed on to take on buses? This approach hinders his integration too because at that stage of the game everything is frantic.

 

[BBZ8800]

Dembele could come in handy this season and u might never know. Limiting your options is more of actually more of a negative and narrow way of thinking.

I know that this sounds impossible to some of you, but Gomes could come in handy also.

Imagine CL semis, we are leading 1:0 and EV wants to defend.
Of course that he will rather sub in Gomes or Paulinho than Dembele.

In heads of majority of you is: Dembele has to play. He will help us, blah blah.
On the other hand, you don't think that Gomes and Paulinho have to play or that they could help to a team in some way.

Why Dembele hasn't played against AM?
= quite simple: because a coach thinks that Gomes/Paulinho can offer more in this moment in terms of results, and that they can offer more in a short term future when we'll need to play balanced in a CL.

You'll ask: but what if we'll need to chase the score?
Well, EV probably thinks that there is a higher chance that we will survive THIS way and that we will need more Gomes/Paulinho than that we will need Dembele.

Reading some comments here, I have an impression that some guys would reply this way:
What is the most important thing in the next games for you?
Is it a score?
is it a lot of goals, actions?
Is it developing a chemistry between our 11 starters and trying some new tactical options?

No, majority of guys would reply: I don't care about a score, tactics, other players or chemistry. I just want to see Dembele playing, that is more important than anything.
Dembele>Barca

EV is preparing a team for CL quarters and semis.
Like it or not, Dembele won't be a starter there.
EV will play with his classic lineup.

 

[denn]

I wanna know what Gomes offers to this team that's better than Dembele? Or Paulinho?

They're not DMs, defensively they are average, and Gomes on the right side is absolutely trash.

I agree that EV is stuborn and he's playing just like in Bilbao, 4-4-2, but Barca isn't Bilbao for fuck sake. If Dembele is fit, start him, at least in the league games, no matter what. Barca is 4-3-3 and that's it.

Are you enjoying watching Barca games? I don't, and it pisses me off. We have players that can play great football, but somehow, his conservative style don't allow us to be like that.

It's important that Dembele get minutes and games, I don't wanna se fucking Gomes instead of him. IF HE OFFERS SOMETHING TO THIS TEAM THAN I'M GOOD WITH THAT, BUT HE'S NOT. HE WAS TRASH FOR 2 YEARS!

 

[LeeRomeno]

Because Valverde has publicly stated that Dembélé is training well but he must prove himself in competition.

How is he supposed to do that if the only competition minutes he is getting is being subbed on to take on buses? This approach hinders his integration too because at that stage of the game everything is frantic.

Sure, so instead of waiting for the correct time to give him his minutes, we should play him at any cost without thinking about consequences. It is really a shame he was injured for most of autumn, when it is exactly the time how to test different players and lineups and what Valverde already did by giving chance to everyone. But in March, approaching the most crucial time of season it is not reasonable at all to try to integrate 3 new players fully at the same time and disrupting the flow of team.
It already has disrupted by introducing Coutinho, another signing that should have been made already in summer.
So this is why it makes sense to go on with the team that learned how to play together in autumn. Noone is questioning the fact that Cou or Dembele or why not Mina can play important part in our future, but sacrificing our season just to "integrate them faster" makes 0 sense whatsoever.

 

[Joan]

He's not ignored, he's not benched nor forgotten. It's way early to say that.

He hasn't played 1 (o-n-e) match.
No reason to worry, yet.

 

[MessiCam]

I know that this sounds impossible to some of you, but Gomes could come in handy also.

Imagine CL semis, we are leading 1:0 and EV wants to defend.
Of course that he will rather sub in Gomes or Paulinho than Dembele.

In heads of majority of you is: Dembele has to play. He will help us, blah blah.
On the other hand, you don't think that Gomes and Paulinho have to play or that they could help to a team in some way.

Why Dembele hasn't played against AM?
= quite simple: because a coach thinks that Gomes/Paulinho can offer more in this moment in terms of results, and that they can offer more in a short term future when we'll need to play balanced in a CL.

You'll ask: but what if we'll need to chase the score?
Well, EV probably thinks that there is a higher chance that we will survive THIS way and that we will need more Gomes/Paulinho than that we will need Dembele.

Reading some comments here, I have an impression that some guys would reply this way:
What is the most important thing in the next games for you?
Is it a score?
is it a lot of goals, actions?
Is it developing a chemistry between our 11 starters and trying some new tactical options?

No, majority of guys would reply: I don't care about a score, tactics, other players or chemistry. I just want to see Dembele playing, that is more important than anything.
Dembele>Barca

EV is preparing a team for CL quarters and semis.
Like it or not, Dembele won't be a starter there.
EV will play with his classic lineup.

Now you're making things up again. I was very fine with Dembélé not playing against Atleti and Chelsea but what I disagree with is Valverde's handling of him. He doesn't get the required minutes for his integration, instead those go to Vidal, Paco and Paulinho in games against Getafe, Eibar and Las Palmas. To make matters worse he gets subbed on in high pressure situations and parked buses to go out there and win games and then he is lamented for losing the ball. Where is the disconnect? That's very unfair and typical of what happened with Denis and Deulofeu earlier in the year. Valverde's plan is play pragmatically and when it doesn't work bring on technical players maybe they can help me out.

And yes, I'm sure Gomes can come in handy but he is plain rubbish going forward. I'd also say it is far more likely that Valverde will have to resort to using Dembélé than Gomes because should we progress his pace and danger will become a necessity against better teams. Gomes offers what? More tackles...

Mark my words. Should we progress Dembélé will win us at least 1 Champions League game.

Sure, so instead of waiting for the correct time to give him his minutes, we should play him at any cost without thinking about consequences. It is really a shame he was injured for most of autumn, when it is exactly the time how to test different players and lineups and what Valverde already did by giving chance to everyone. But in March, approaching the most crucial time of season it is not reasonable at all to try to integrate 3 new players fully at the same time and disrupting the flow of team.
It already has disrupted by introducing Coutinho, another signing that should have been made already in summer.
So this is why it makes sense to go on with the team that learned how to play together in autumn. Noone is questioning the fact that Cou or Dembele or why not Mina can play important part in our future, but sacrificing our season just to "integrate them faster" makes 0 sense whatsoever.

What are you talking about? I'm not talking about playing him against Chelsea and Atleti. I'm talking about playing him against the Eibar, Las Palmas, Getafe and Malaga like teams. There is absolutely no reason why he shouldn't be playing those. It gives at least one regular a rest and he gets to play from the start in a more stress free environment instead of being told to dribble a fucking parked bus. Against these type of teams Suárez and Messi can alternate who gets to rest. Iniesta could also be a benefactor should Coutinho play in midfield like against Girona.