11 - Ousmane Dembélé - V1

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serghei

Senior Member
We want them making the pressure high up as a step no1.
But if the opponent outplay us and gets into our half, we can either:
1) have attackers standind in attack and hoping that defense, Busi and Raki will somehow get the ball and pass it back to our attackers
2) or, in these situations, attackers will need to drop back and defend in some actions

In these type of actions, no2 when attackers have to drop back, Dembele was quite lost when he tried tackles.

It looked as "fake defending".
He was there, but without a clue what to do and how to actually steal the ball back.
He would just jog around a player, without trying to make a contact, tackle, foul, push him.

In these situations, sure, the attackers do drop, but still not to go tackling mode and get the ball back. But to block passes to certain players that are trying to receive the ball. Very few players in world football try to actively take on an opposing player that is positioned well. And those are marquee dribblers who have other players marking them, not the likes of Dembele.

Our strikers usually have to drop a bit and close down some passing options, or to follow some runs usually made by fullbacks. They are rarely in position to make tackles. And if they are it's because they failed to close down that pass in the first place most of the time.

Dembele has to pay attention to the other team's fullback mostly. That's the player that can speculate spaces on the wing since he is not considered a grade 1 threat. Make sure the fullback and the winger don't isolate our fullback into a 2 vs 1 situation. And not world class fullbacks mind you, because the likes of Marcelo have to get special treatment. It's not like you expect somebody like Dembele to guard him in any way.
 
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Tekkers

New member
We want them making the pressure high up as a step no1.
But if the opponent outplay us and gets into our half, we can either:
1) have attackers standind in attack and hoping that defense, Busi and Raki will somehow get the ball and pass it back to our attackers
2) or, in these situations, attackers will need to drop back and defend in some actions

In these type of actions, no2 when attackers have to drop back, Dembele was quite lost when he tried tackles.

It looked as "fake defending".
He was there, but without a clue what to do and how to actually steal the ball back.
He would just jog around a player, without trying to make a contact, tackle, foul, push him.

of course it looked like "fake defending" because he's an attacker not a defender

his job as an attacker is to score goals and create opportunities for others to score goals. his main defensive responsibility should be to press like literally every other attacker in world football.

if barcas success is contingent on their attackers being able to win the ball back from their opposition like a kante, then that says more about the midfielders than it does the attackers. so why not seek to make amendments to the midfielder, rather than turn attackers into kante and casemiro like players?
 

serghei

Senior Member
Press, block passing channels and track runs that happen near him, in his area, when other players are engaged in duels as well. Tackling and getting the ball back by dispossessing somebody is not and should not be his job. It happens rarely for wingers and dribbling players to get the ball back from other dribblers. It's just a football rarity.
 

vlad

New member
I agree he had to be with Barca squad at the moment, but recalling him earlier would be insulting for Ousmane. Lemar's case is a bit different - he needs to pass a medical test before the official presentation. Also we don't know, yet, whether Lemar is to resume his vacation after the event, just like CR7 did few weeks ago, or join the summer friendly tour of Atleti.

Even Adil Rami, who played 0 minutes at WC, is on vacation, being more of a tabloid stuff.

"Insulting for dembele" guy who barely played whole season including WC, that has so much to prove, withbig salary which he still doesnt deserve, what exactly is insulting if he comes little earlier?
 

Total-Football

Senior Member
Press, block passing channels and track runs that happen near him, in his area, when other players are engaged in duels as well. Tackling and getting the ball back by dispossessing somebody is not and should not be his job. It happens rarely for wingers and dribbling players to get the ball back from other dribblers. It's just a football rarity.

you made a good couple of posts about the nature of defensive qualities that offensive players have but i disagree with you about one particular thing. those defensive skills are not taught,explained through managers.. i believe some offensive players are endowed with it, some are not. i have never seen a bad defensive striker turning into a defensive beast all of a sudden. conversly, monsterous defensive strikers are like that since the starting years of their senior professional carreer.
 

serghei

Senior Member
you made a good couple of posts about the nature of defensive qualities that offensive players have but i disagree with you about one particular thing. those defensive skills are not taught,explained through managers.. i believe some offensive players are endowed with it, some are not. i have never seen a bad defensive striker turning into a defensive beast all of a sudden. conversly, monsterous defensive strikers are like that since the starting years of their senior professional carreer.

It can come with age as his football IQ becomes better. He's still too young to know what he'll develop into at 24-25 when he'll be in his prime basically.

Some of it can be thought though. And it does depend on managers imo. For example some managers want to hold your position and form a defensive block (drop with the midfielders in a 5 line and act basically as the widest defender, allowing midfielders to overcrowd the center). Don't go looking for the ball and don't defend high. Just drop, and wait for them to come at you. Engage in physical duels and fouls when they do.

Others managers want you to press the ball carrier with high intensity. Then proceed to press other players as they receive the ball. You waste a lot of energy in this way and accomplish nothing. Because most of the pressing is done with a big physical component, without intelligence. This is the typical English team pressing. Almost looks like chaotic movements from player to player. Physical and intense, but disorganized. It's done so poorly at times that you end up being tricked like in the schoolyard.

Other managers don't want you to press the ball carrier, but want you to block maybe some classic build-up passes from the centerbacks to more advanced players (midfielders and fullbacks), for example CB - fullback which is a classic safe build-up option. This approach is not focused to get the ball back fast, but it impedes the build-up of the other team. You basically allow the opponent time on the ball in his half. Don't press the ball carrier, don't press backward pass to the goalkeeper, but you make building from there up difficult. This is sort of the modern way. And it works well with teams that have poor off the ball movement.

Other select managers want you to press using two other variables, cover shadow and access. This is the pressing Guardiola uses and is the best most advanced type. The winger presses the central defender coming from the side, so he has the fullback behind him, unable to receive. It puts pressure on the person with the ball and it leaves him without options. It must be done by 4-5 players at least, because otherwise, a good passing option will pop-up in time and you're gonna get toast.

Some young players had maybe 1-2 managers in their life at the senior levels. Maybe even1 top manager. That manager usually is focused on some type of defensive transition that fits his vision about effective football. Either pressing based, or whatever, with some clear ideas going in the same direction. It's hard for a young player to be such a tactically astute individual, as to apply himself to every tactic. Which is why coaching is very important. And which is why for young players, visionary coaches with an identity are better. It is a lot less confusing for them. Easier for them to follow clear instructions which are almost identical on a game by game basis.

Valverde for me doesn't have any clear type of style. He's kind of a mixed bag. Very hard manager to understand well, or play well for. Today he would use pressing, next game he would park the bus and play on the counter. He is a pragmatist, with no style, basically trying to play the result. Which is why he wants his players to be mature, experienced, willing to apply themselves to whichever type of tactic works best for a particular type of situation according to him. Sometimes he would play 1-2 different types of defense and positional game in the same match if the result somehow makes him switch.

It's not a manager I like for this team and players. We would be better with someone who knows what he wants to play and who can mold the players in that direction. Some players don't need that much molding anyway. Maybe Valverde will have a good enough squad to not make him as fearful as he is. Because he looked like a manager too scared to play Barca football at times. A lot of times weaker teams exploited this fear he has, and we basically ended up being dominated by vastly inferior sides who had more courage to go out and play, not looking at the result.
 
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Windhook

Well-known member
"Insulting for dembele" guy who barely played whole season including WC, that has so much to prove, withbig salary which he still doesnt deserve, what exactly is insulting if he comes little earlier?

A little earlier? It's been 12 days since the World Cup ended, mate. The hatred here goes beyond reason, because you ignore the fact that almost all Barcelona WC players, except Ter Stegen, are on a break currently.
 

FCBfan22

Senior Member
At least he recognises quality...

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