11 - Ousmane Dembélé - V1

[BBZ8800]

If they're that great,

Why don't they ever win a European competition, even Europa League? (Clearly dominated by Spanish teams)

Why don't they win even domestic trophies, if there is such a small gap?

Keep living the dream, although that won't change the reality that Ligue 1 teams (bar PSG, because of their budget and players) are inferior to their La Liga counterparts, at least the top 10 (arguably top 15), if you compare both leagues.

And about Huesca, they're a promoted team, which depends on the quality of segunda division. So, it can't be used to determine the strength of La Liga, which is the top league in Spain.

I have wrote in a similar topic: La Liga is obviously CURRENTLY better than Ligue 1, for example.
But, imo, La liga is NOT as much better as people think.
Plus, things are changing all the time.

Here is one article regarding eras in European club competition:
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/european/premier-league-serie-a-la-liga-epl-best-league-golden-era-of-all-time-a7647681.html

The same as how we can see today replies: La Liga is not only Barcelona and Real. Look how strong Atletico, Sevilla and other teams are, well guys, look at this.
Italian football in 90s:

European Cup/Champions League winners: 4 (Milan 3, Juventus 1)
Uefa Cup winners: 8 (Inter 3, Juventus 2, Parma 2, Napoli 1)
Cup Winners Cup winners: 3 (Sampdoria 1, Parma 1, Lazio 1)
Beaten finalists: 13 (5 European Cup, 6 Uefa Cup, 2 Cup Winners Cup)
Domestic champions: 11 (Milan 5, Juventus 3, Inter 1, Napoli 1, Sampdoria 1)

An era that inspires so much fondness and discussion, but that is not just down to mere nostalgia. It is down to remarkable results, and possibly the highest level of football ever seen, at least in terms of concentrated of quality across such a high number of teams. The dynamics of the broadcasting model, and how prestigious Serie A was, meant that every team had a star. This was a period when the Fiorentina of Gabriel Batistuta could finish as low as eighth among 18 clubs but still impress, and Gheorge Hagi’s Brescia were relegated. Even beyond the stars and before we get to the true teams of stature like Arrigo Sacchi’s Total Football-inspired AC Milan and a controversial Juventus, the stats say so much. Of the 66 places in European finals across these 11 years, a remarkable 10 different Serie A clubs occupied 28 of them, and had at least two finalists in every season bar 1995-96. That was when Juventus won one of the four Champions Leagues they shared with AC Milan, making it a total of seven different clubs who claimed trophies. Then there are the names that immediately conjure so many images: Marco van Basten, Diego Maradona, Jurgen Klinsmann, Ruud Gullit, Lothar Matthaus, Beppe Signori, Roberto Mancini, Gianluca Vialli, Dejan Savicevic, Roberto Baggio, George Weah, Alessandro Del Piero, Ronaldo… the list goes on, the era went on for a long time. Like all league cycles, though, it had to end. That is the nature of it, but no era could match the nature of Serie A back then.

Italy had 10 (!) different teams in European finals in 90s (ok, we had 3 European cups then: CL, Cup winners cup and Uefa cup, but still...).
And look where Italy is now, 10, 15 or 20 years after that.

Juventus is good. Inter won in 2009' and that's it.
My point: those things change.
It is not set in stone that Spain will stay here for too long.

When Spain came to this position:
Italy bankrupted and all players wanted to run away from Italian clubs.
England was rich, but not as rich as today.
France was not as rich as today (Psg).
Germany was the same as today.

So, compared to 10 years ago, when Spanish dominance started:
Italy is getting better and richer again.
England is way richer than that due to rich owners (City) and huge sponsor deals, which will slowly turn more mediocre players to England, and not to Spain, and longterm that will lower our quality.
France is also richer than 10 years ago. (Psg, but to some extent winning a World cup).
The only thing which is the same as 10 years ago is: Germany.

When you add to this that Spain just lost 2 out of 3 superstars (CR7, Neymar) and Messi will be gone soon, then our marketing power will be way weaker.
So, Spain turned into a No1:
1. when Italy was in a knockdown
2. when we bought CR7 and were gifted Messi in the same moment
3. when Pep came here

None of those applies anymore.
I know, I know, we will buy new players, but having young Cr7 and Messi here in 2009 was the same as having current Salah and Mbappe here.
We have none of them.

So, 2008 was a perfect and a lucky moment, we have built a momentum after that, other teams have followed us and we were riding on that wave after that.
But now, it is the same domino-effect in a negative way: England is richer than us, and Italy and France are coming back (Psg is richer than us).
Cr7, Messi and Neymar will be gone.
There aren't any shiny new gems in our teams currently (I know that some people will mention Dembele. Please don't mention him in that sentence).

So, imo, it is quite safe to say that Spanish league will be weaker in 4-5 years than TODAY.
How much? Hard to tell.
Whether France or Germany will be better or equal? Hard to tell.
But quite likely: England will be a No1, and we will be far behind.

My point: things, economy, top earners, generations of players, Ballon D Or winners=are changing all the time.
Be careful guys with these "Mickey Mouse" (even though I started to use that joke among first here, when I commented on some random weak teams in Neymar's thread while he played here) and "farmers league" phrases, because it can easily happen that other countries will troll us in 5 or 10 years.

 

[Jair Ventura]

If they're that great,

Why don't they ever win a European competition, even Europa League? (Clearly dominated by Spanish teams)

Why don't they win even domestic trophies, if there is such a small gap?

Keep living the dream, although that won't change the reality that Ligue 1 teams (bar PSG, because of their budget and players) are inferior to their La Liga counterparts, at least the top 10 (arguably top 15), if you compare both leagues.

And about Huesca, they're a promoted team, which depends on the quality of segunda division. So, it can't be used to determine the strength of La Liga, which is the top league in Spain.

The UCL or the Europa have absolutely nothing to do with how good Nîmes Olympique or SD Huesca are. You fall back to this lazy analysis any time this topic arises because you don't actually follow either league, and have no clue of the quality at the bottom of their competitions.

 

[Judoman]

England was the reachest league in the last 10 years. In that period they managed to win 1 CL and 2 EL.

So factualy, money doesn t guarantee trophies.

Stating what will happen in 5 years is pointless. Who says the next superstar(s) will not play for Barca/Real? I think it s a solid chance he (they) will, based on the history.
With the exception of Barca/Real the Spanish league was never the reachest. Yet spanish clubs managed to win 7 CL and 6 EL in the last 10 years. As a whole spanish clubs also won the most european competition trophies.
Interestingly, Dutch clubs won more trophies than French clubs.

Power of Spanish league is based on Barca/Real, 2 of the most prestigious football clubs on the planet. Their presence and rivalry guarantees good TV ratings in the future and that will not just fade away.

Salah and Mbappe are not Messi and CR. Perhaps they can be, (at least Mbappe)but atm they are not.

Also , Dembele is a gem and the future superstar

 

[Donatello]

The UCL or the Europa have absolutely nothing to do with how good Nîmes Olympique or SD Huesca are. You fall back to this lazy analysis any time this topic arises because you don't actually follow either league, and have no clue of the quality at the bottom of their competitions.

A league is judged by how many strong teams they have and what they have achieved, no one cares what the bottom five teams are like. UCL and Europa league are there for a reason.

Of course I don't care about whether Nimes are better or worse than Huesca. I am more interested in the performance of the top teams in both leagues.

 

[Jair Ventura]

A league is judged by how many strong teams they have and what they have achieved, no one cares what the bottom five teams are like. UCL and Europa league are there for a reason.

Of course I don't care about whether Nimes are better or worse than Huesca. I am more interested in the performance of the top teams in both leagues.

Spoken like someone who doesn't follow football. We can end our discussion there because the way we look at and approach the sport is entirely different.

 

[BBZ8800]

England was the reachest league in the last 10 years. In that period they managed to win 1 CL and 2 EL.

So factualy, money doesn t guarantee trophies.

1. England was richer than Spain. Now it is way more richer.
We had CR7 and Messi, so we were able to neutralize their money.
10 years later, we'll see whether we will be able to do that.

Stating what will happen in 5 years is pointless. Who says the next superstar(s) will not play for Barca/Real? I think it s a solid chance he (they) will, based on the history.

Majority of Barca's legendary players and leaders were from Brasil. Or Holland. Or domestic guys, of course.
Cruijff, Koeman, Romario, R9, Rivaldo, Ronaldinho, Deco, (Messi), Neymar.

In 1996 or 1999, when we wanted to buy a Brasilian, for a Brasilian player the real choice was:
Milan, Inter
Barca or Real

Today, a choice for a young Brasilian is:
Barca, Real
Juve
Psg
Bayern
Man City, Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal
10-20 years ago, top Brasilian players weren't THAT interested in going to England.
England was not THAT strong, rich, technical, or filled with South American players.
Today, a different story.

So, imo, buying R9, Rivaldo or Ronaldinho was way easier back then than today.

So, today, to get a superstar, we will either need to *get lucky* with La Masia (which won't happen), or pay 200M for a player.

Power of Spanish league is based on Barca/Real, 2 of the most prestigious football clubs on the planet. Their presence and rivalry guarantees good TV ratings in the future and that will not just fade away.

Your post sounds slightly as if: Barca is the biggest brand, regardless of other factors.

But imo, Barca is currently where it is, due to:
1. results
2. Messi
3. Messi vs CR7 media hype
4. beautiful play
5. money

If you remove: results (CL wins), Messi, Messi vs CR7 and money, we are in problems.

Their presence and rivalry guarantees good TV ratings in the future and that will not just fade away.

Hmm, with that logic again, their presence was probably EQUAL in 2018, 2013, 2008, 2003, 1998, right?
Barca was always Barca, with logic.
And Real was always Real.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deloitte_Football_Money_League

2018:
1. Man Utd
2. Real
3. Barcelona
4. Bayern
5. City

1998:
1. Man Utd
2. Real
3. Bayern
4. Juventus
5. Newcastle (lol)
6. Barcelona

So, Newcastle was richer than us 20 years ago. Interesting, right?

Look at 2002', on the other hand:
1. Man Utd
2. Juventus
3. Bayern
4. Milan
5. Real
6. Liverpool
7. Lazio
8. Roma
9. Chelsea
10. Inter
= in top5 clubs, we had 5 Italian clubs: Juventus, Milan, Lazio, Roma, Inter
Barca wasn't in top10 richest teams.
Interesting and weird, isn't it?

These are Barca's rankings from 1998 till today, from that list:
1998: 6th
2002: -- (not in top10)
2003: 9th
2004: --
2005: 7th
2006: 6th
2007: 2nd
2008: 3rd
2009: 3rd
2010: 2nd
2011: 2nd
2012: 2nd
2013: 2nd
2014: 2nd
2015: 4th
2016: 2nd
2017: 2nd
2018: 3rd

So, Barca started to be among top 2-3 richest on this list in 2007', after we won a CL in 2006 and when we had beautiful football and a superstar Ronaldinho.
Then we continued being on top with Messi, Xavi and Pep.

On the other hand, look at a fall of AC Milan, who were on top 20 years ago:
2002: 4th
2003: 4th
2004: 3rd
2005: 3rd
2006: 3rd
2007: 5th
2008: 6th
2009: 8th
2010: 10th
2011: 7th
2012: 7th
2013: 8th
2014: 10th
2015: 15th
2016: 14th
2017: 16th
2018: 22nd

Look at Psg:
2011: not in top30
2012: not in top30
2013: 10th
2014: 5th
2015: 5th
2016: 4th
2017: 6th
2018: 7th

Or Man City:
2008: not in top20
2009: 20th
2010: 19th
2011: 11th
2012: 12th
2013: 7th
2014: 6th
2015: 6th
2016: 6th
2017: 5th
2018: 5th

So, my point is: teams aren't where they are just because of their name.
Milan was once when Barca is today, they are on the 22th place 10 years later.
Psg and City were not in top20 teams 10 years ago, today they are around top 5-6 powerhouses in Europe and they can buy ANY player. Both financially and in terms of prestige (these farmer's Mickey Mouse jokes will not be that funny soon).
So, imo, Barca (and Real) will take huge blows in:
1. losing Cr7 and Messi as players
2. losing media/youtube/teen hype of Messi vs CR7 battle
3. losing prestige due to a lack of CL trophies (in the future)
4. English teams and Psg will be richer (also, eventually we will earn less from sponsors without Messi and CL trophies). Riching CL's quarters and playing with Coutinho and Dembele as key players won't be as attractive to neutral fans as winning CLs with Messi.

So, imo, NO. Barca won't keep it's place only due to it's name.
There are lots of factors which are influencing who is on top.
And it seems that we are losing in majority of those areas currently (Messi, EPL, Italian league returning to a scene, hype Messi vs CR7, CL trophies, beautiful attractive football).

 

[Maxim4]

deschamps will be playing 4 4 2 tomorrow.
no Dembélé in the departure.

 

[Judoman]

[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION]

Basically all you said is pure speculation. Pesimistic specualation from a Barca fan standpoint.

- You don t know if Barca results will suffer in the future and by how much.
- You don t know Barca/Real will not produce superstars in the future. Infact, it s much more likely they will. Messi/CR are two in a long line of superstars playing for Barca/Real.
- You don t know they will loose any fan support. Infact it s much more likely they won t. MU hasn t and they don t have Messi/CR or results.
- You don t know they won t win CL trophies. Infact, it s much more likely they will.
- You don t know English teams will be richer, except for oil money based clubs.
- Money doesn t automaticaly bring CL. It only increases the ods

Milan is still a big club. They are not as rich as they were, but that can easily change with 1 good generation of players. I get that you are contrarian, but always choosing the darkest speculative option doesn t
make sence. It is as one sided as thinking we are gona win it all in the next 10 years.

 

[Horatio]

Don't think Spanish Liga will falter much in the future mainly because of the Spanish football culture. Football in Spain seems simply more disciplined than that in England.

 

[Jair Ventura]

The 2008-2012 era has skewed people's perception of Spanish football. The country has one WC, and outside of its golden generation, doesn't regularly produce the worlds best players.

 

[FinBarcelonafan]

The 2008-2012 era has skewed people's perception of Spanish football. The country has one WC, and outside of its golden generation, doesn't regularly produce the worlds best players.

Why does it produce the best teams? Spain has dominated last 10 years in CL and Europe league. It's no luck.

 

[Kul_z]

The 2008-2012 era has skewed people's perception of Spanish football. The country has one WC, and outside of its golden generation, doesn't regularly produce the worlds best players.

It was golden generation, like once in a lifetime. And it was la masia's fault for that. Back to back euro's and in the middle wc. With two cl. Thats called domination.

 

[Luftstalag14]

The 2008-2012 era has skewed people's perception of Spanish football. The country has one WC, and outside of its golden generation, doesn't regularly produce the worlds best players.

Spain is still churning out very good talents, some of the best in Europe, regardless of how the Spain NT does.

Plus, some of the best players in the world, including those from Brazil and France, come to Spain to play.

 

[BBZ8800]

The 2008-2012 era has skewed people's perception of Spanish football. The country has one WC, and outside of its golden generation, doesn't regularly produce the worlds best players.

[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION]

Basically all you said is pure speculation. Pesimistic specualation from a Barca fan standpoint.

- You don t know if Barca results will suffer in the future and by how much.
- You don t know Barca/Real will not produce superstars in the future. Infact, it s much more likely they will. Messi/CR are two in a long line of superstars playing for Barca/Real.
- You don t know they will loose any fan support. Infact it s much more likely they won t. MU hasn t and they don t have Messi/CR or results.
- You don t know they won t win CL trophies. Infact, it s much more likely they will.
- You don t know English teams will be richer, except for oil money based clubs.
- Money doesn t automaticaly bring CL. It only increases the ods

Milan is still a big club. They are not as rich as they were, but that can easily change with 1 good generation of players. I get that you are contrarian, but always choosing the darkest speculative option doesn t
make sence. It is as one sided as thinking we are gona win it all in the next 10 years.

Judoman, I don't think that Barca will follow Milan's footsteps, but imo, from a club who was No1 under Pep, and a No2-no3 in the last few years, we will drop to places 4-5-6-7.
Where you will have 7-8 equal teams and none of them will dominate that much.

Before Messi and Barca, no one was dominating in a CL that much. (2 Cls in 3 years, or 3 in 6 years).
And only CR7 repeated that (4 in 5).
Ok, Real managed that in 98, 00, 02, but they never won a league title then.

Imo, what Messi and CR7 did is an exception, not the new rule.

And I think that Barca will return to a state of late 90s, or early Rijkaard's era, when we were always one out of top 5-6-7-8 clubs in Europe, but not an undisputable no1 or no2 like today.

For example, as Jair, it seems that a view on Spanish NT football and La Liga is skewed in the last 10 years.

Before Xavi and Pep, Spain was just a normal NT European Top10 team.
In terms of Tv coverage, for example, when I was a teen (I am from Croatia), this is how Tv coverage of football looked in Croatia, Slovenia, Bosnia and Serbia (I watched regular and sport channels from all 4 countries):
Early 90s: in Croatia, you could have watched 1 match from Seria A on Sunday. No other leagues were on a Tv.
Around 1995-1996, another Croatian Tv channel started to cover 1-2 matches from EPL every weekend.
So, we had Seria A and EPL each weekend.
Then I started to watch Slovenian, Serbian and Bosnian channel to see more European football.
In Slovenia, they only covered EPL each weekend.
Serbia covered 3-4 matches from Seria A each weekend.

So, in early 90s it was: only Seria A
In Late 90s: Seria A and EPL in all countries.
No one was covering matches from Spain, Germany or France.
In late 90s, Croatian Tv started to cover ONLY El Classicos, twice per season.

In early 2000s, when Lazio was a champion in 2000 and Roma in 2001, I liked Roma back then (from Italian teams) and I remember that I was able to watch 90% of Roma's matches on a Croatian Tv.
One station covered 3-4 matches from Seria A each weekend.
So, in early 2000s, we had 3-4 matches from Seria A and 3-4 matches from EPL each weekend for free on national Tv channels.

Then around 2000', some Serbian channels started to cover 1 match from Spain on Sunday evening (either Real or Barca).
But you see, it was: 4 Italian matches, 4 English matches in Croatia each week.
And 4 Italian, 4 English, 1 Spanish match in Serbia each weekend.

I have no idea in which football matches were other countries interested back then, but La Liga was a No3 in Croatia, Serbia, Slovenia, Bosnia.
And according to some stats and money, Seria A was a No1 in 90s and early 90s. And EPL behind it.

But you see, it all changed around 2006, 2009 and later.
Italian league died.
And Spain took their position and fans.
For example, I stopped watching Italian football after their financial crash around 2005'.

Again, I am just saying how football looked from my perspective and which matches and leagues Tv channels broadcasted in 90s and early 00s.
For example, today, I can watch all Spanish, Italian, English, German, French, Portuguese, Hollands, Croatian, Chinese, Japanese, Brasilian, Turkish football matches on Croatian Tv channels in 2018'.

But imo, if someone thinks that Barca was always Barca and that La liga was always like a current La Liga, imo, you are wrong.
In that sense, times will probably change in the future.

And remember, era from 2008-2018 was the most successful era of Spanish NT football and from Spanish clubs.
It is wrong to set this era as some kind of a norm.
This was the brightest era of Spain in history.

So, it is quite likely that Spanish popularity will slightly drop in the future.
Whether it will be for 1%, 10% or more, we will see in upcoming years.

But, imo, a drop will surely come, because in footballing words, Spanish football was on it's peak in 2008 till today.
Both in terms of NT team and NT trophies, Messi and Barca's CL constant trophies, CR7 and Real's CL constant trophies.
A lot of these things won't be here in 5 years.

 

[Jair Ventura]

Why does it produce the best teams? Spain has dominated last 10 years in CL and Europe league. It's no luck.

It only started producing the best teams after Ronaldinho moved to Spain. Before that La Liga was not definitively above English or Italian football as it is now. After the retirement of Messi it will return to what it was. A league largely dominated by Madrid.

Spain is still churning out very good talents, some of the best in Europe, regardless of how the Spain NT does.

Plus, some of the best players in the world, including those from Brazil and France, come to Spain to play.

What talents, and why isn't anyone buying them?