5 - Carles Puyol

[barcelonista]

no.

it was Mascherano, Puyol and Abidal as a back three and none of them looked good.

today we had Puyol, Mascherano and Abidal as a back three and only Puyol looked bad.

My bad, he really started. Nevertheless, Puyol played RB today. It was the other way around against Valencia. And the defense looks bad because it is a 3 man defense. It looked bad ever since it was implemented. Once the opposition has a go at us and doesn't sit back, we look awful defensively. Hence why we are dropping points away from home where teams usually go at us with their fans behind their backs. Real Betis is one of the few teams that doesn't sit back, even in the Camp Nou, and the result could be seen. Almost fucked it up. Without the Catalan crowd behind the players backs, this was another guaranteed 2-2. I hope Mourinho completely exposes this shit on Wednesday. Could save us La Liga at the end.

 

[Metaphysical]

My bad, he really started. Nevertheless, Puyol played RB today. It was the other way around against Valencia. And the defense looks bad because it is a 3 man defense. It looked bad ever since it was implemented. Once the opposition has a go at us and doesn't sit back, we look awful defensively. Hence why we are dropping points away from home where teams usually go at us with their fans behind their backs. Real Betis is one of the few teams that doesn't sit back, even in the Camp Nou, and the result could be seen. Almost fucked it up. Without the Catalan crowd behind the players backs, this was another guaranteed 2-2. I hope Mourinho completely exposes this shit on Wednesday. Could save us La Liga at the end.

the 3 man defence is the reason our Camp Nou goal difference this season is something absurd like 60-6, and we've won all but 2 games.

the dropped points in San Sebastian weren't because of the system (we played 433).

we played 433 in Betis (in the Copa) last year and got pummeled 3-1. should have been 5-1 tbh.

the 3 man back-line was horribly deployed against Valencia, for sure, but that's because Puyol and Mascherano were in the same backline AND Valencia played with great width. had Piqué played instead of Puyol, we may not have played well but we wouldn't have conceded twice I promise you.

but the 3 man back-line is also why we won crucial away games in Milan and Madrid, even in the face of massive pressure from the opponents who certainly had a go at us.

the system isn't the problem, it's the way it's deployed that can be. Puyol and Mascherano in the same defence doesn't work because their instincts are too similar. you also need great intensity from the forward & midfield to press the ball, and any slackness can be punished.

but then you don't think Messi is a playmaker, so let's just nip this argument in the bud and just agree to disagree.

 

[Barcaman]

the 3 man defence is the reason our Camp Nou goal difference this season is something absurd like 60-6, and we've won all but 2 games.

the dropped points in San Sebastian weren't because of the system (we played 433).

we played 433 in Betis (in the Copa) last year and got pummeled 3-1. should have been 5-1 tbh.

the 3 man back-line was horribly deployed against Valencia, for sure, but that's because Puyol and Mascherano were in the same backline AND Valencia played with great width. had Piqué played instead of Puyol, we may not have played well but we wouldn't have conceded twice I promise you.

but the 3 man back-line is also why we won crucial away games in Milan and Madrid, even in the face of massive pressure from the opponents who certainly had a go at us.

the system isn't the problem, it's the way it's deployed that can be. Puyol and Mascherano in the same defence doesn't work because their instincts are too similar. you also need great intensity from the forward & midfield to press the ball, and any slackness can be punished.

but then you don't think Messi is a playmaker, so let's just nip this argument in the bud and just agree to disagree.

 

[Maria]

the 3 man defence is the reason our Camp Nou goal difference this season is something absurd like 60-6, and we've won all but 2 games.

the dropped points in San Sebastian weren't because of the system (we played 433).

we played 433 in Betis (in the Copa) last year and got pummeled 3-1. should have been 5-1 tbh.

the 3 man back-line was horribly deployed against Valencia, for sure, but that's because Puyol and Mascherano were in the same backline AND Valencia played with great width. had Piqué played instead of Puyol, we may not have played well but we wouldn't have conceded twice I promise you.

but the 3 man back-line is also why we won crucial away games in Milan and Madrid, even in the face of massive pressure from the opponents who certainly had a go at us.

the system isn't the problem, it's the way it's deployed that can be. Puyol and Mascherano in the same defence doesn't work because their instincts are too similar. you also need great intensity from the forward & midfield to press the ball, and any slackness can be punished.

but then you don't think Messi is a playmaker, so let's just nip this argument in the bud and just agree to disagree.

 

[barcelonista]

the 3 man defence is the reason our Camp Nou goal difference this season is something absurd like 60-6, and we've won all but 2 games.

The 3-4-3 is the reason our away goal difference is something absurd like 12:9. See what I did there?

we played 433 in Betis (in the Copa) last year and got pummeled 3-1. should have been 5-1 tbh.

We got pummeled because we won the first leg 5-0 and played a B side that didn't care, consisting of Milito, Maxwell plus Keita and Mascherano in midfield plus Bojan and newly bought Afellay upfront. All those players never played together like that before. What has this got to do with 3-4-3 vs. 4-3-3?

but the 3 man back-line is also why we won crucial away games in Milan and Madrid, even in the face of massive pressure from the opponents who certainly had a go at us.

We won the Milan game due to a soft penalty call for Xavi at the end. We didn't have any control of that game either. It was some super fast and direct end-to-end football. Zonal Marking analysis:

Barcelona had more of the ball (of course) and created more goalscoring opportunities, but were never completely in control of the game.

Both managers seemed to treat this game as something of an exhibition match – it’s hard to believe it would have been so open if this was a semi-final between the two sides.

Barcelona’s formation continues to be interesting, but in this match it’s not certain it worked, despite the overall victory.

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2011/11/24/milan-2-3-barcelona-xavi-gets-the-winner/

I don't know how 3-2 against this overaged Milan side that Spurs kicked out of the CL last season is a praise for 3-4-3. Would we have lost with 4-3-3? TROLOLLOLOL.

The Real Madrid game proved nothing regarding the 3-4-3 either. We didn't have any control over that game (as we never have with the 3-4-3 once we get pressed properly). Ronaldo bottling it twice and the superior individual quality of some of our players (Sanchez, Alves, Messi, Fabregas) plus a little bit of luck with the deflected Xavi goal won us that game.

But yeah, let's disagree.

 

[gingerless]

yeah, i was saying this during the game... i don't want to see puyol and masch together

 

[Deco 20]

Y no Piqué? too many yellows?

Btw, 50 straight unbeaten...

 

[Metaphysical]

do you actually have an opinion of your own or do you just take other peoples? zonal marking is frequently wrong.

other than that, yes, let's disagree.

 

[barcelonista]

do you actually have an opinion of your own or do you just take other peoples? zonal marking is frequently wrong.

Strong argument there. I underlined my own argument with the analysis of someone else's that saw what I saw (and pretty much everyone else did in the comment section). I didn' copy it. But preach on if you think we controlled that game and 3-4-3 worked wonders.

Do you actually have some arguments against it other than "ZM is often wrong"?

 

[Barcaman]

Feck those blogs. You guys need to go for your own holsters. Either articulate yourselves or be cows in the field (thank you Werner).

 

[Metaphysical]

Strong argument there. I underlined my own argument with the analysis of someone else's that saw what I saw (and pretty much everyone else did in the comment section). I didn' copy it. But preach on if you think we controlled that game and 3-4-3 worked wonders.

Do you actually have some arguments against it other than "ZM is often wrong"?

I'm not debating the worthiness of ZM, they're right and wrong like most anyone, but the frequency with which you lean on the "such and such says so and so" is quite telling.

 

[barcelonista]

I'm not debating the worthiness of ZM, they're right and wrong like most anyone, but the frequency with which you lean on the "such and such says so and so" is quite telling.

You're dodging the topic, not responding to my actual arguments but making fun of me quoting ZM (for the first time here if I remember correctly). Case closed then.

































13 vs. 16 shots
59 % possession, which is low for Barcelona standards
2 goals conceded
won due to the a very soft Xavi penalty

=

3-4-3 won us a crucial game. Ahhh, man. I better not start to list all the crucial games which we've won with the 4-3-3 over the last 3 - 4 year in a much more convincing fashion. But I guess you'll counter with the second leg CdR game against Betis then.

 

[Metaphysical]

You're dodging the topic, not responding to my actual arguments but making fun of me quoting ZM (for the first time here if I remember correctly). Case closed then.

I'm sick of seeing you relying on the arguments of others.

and I'm not gonna troll through ZM's archives just to highlight instances when he's wrong.

13 vs. 16 shots
59 % possession, which is low for Barcelona standards
2 goals conceded
won due to the a very soft Xavi penalty

=

3-4-3 won us a crucial game. Ahhh, man. I better not start to list all the crucial games which we've won with the 4-3-3 over the last 3 - 4 year in a much more convincing fashion. But I guess you'll counter with the second leg CdR game against Betis then.

1. it wasn't a soft penalty.
2. 2 goals conceded, 1 was down to poor play from Puyol and Thiago on the break... the other was a wondergoal on the break.
3. Piqué didn't play. our defence always suffers when Piqué doesn't play. we played 433 at the Camp Nou against Milan and conceded twice on the break. why? because Piqué didn't play. we bossed large spells of the game, playing superb probing football that Milan couldn't keep up with. even the myopic Italian media admitted we had been the better team and deserved the win.
4. we only got around 55% possession against United in Rome with 433. supwitdat?

against Real we conceded once because of a phenomenally retarded error from Valdés and some bad luck when Busi tried to cover. otherwise we stood up to the fitter & in-form's team phenomenal pressing game and played our own style. we then absolutely dominated the game in the second half. yeah we got a lucky goal with the deflection, but we'd have won anyway as by then it was all going our way because of the system the 3-man backline allowed us to play.

what you could say is that we tend to make more individual errors with a 3-man defence, and that is certainly the case, but that is mostly down to a lack of familiarity with the system. playing the system is the only way to fully get used to it, and getting used to it is the best way forward as it keeps us tactically versatile AND keeps the tried & tested Trident from being overexposed and figured out as it was after the Paris win.

 

[barcelonista]

Feck those blogs. You guys need to go for your own holsters. Either articulate yourselves or be cows in the field (thank you Werner).

If someone says "we controled the game" and I say: "we didn't", I can't prove it like a mathematical formula can be proven. It's something subjectiv to a certain extend (although stats like shots, possession and the goals conceded are a good hint). So I have to refer to opinions of what other people think. And ZM, of course not THE truth, is still a more trustworthy source than any forum member here. I can't refer to him if I wrote a Ph.D. about sports sciences of course but I can if I'm discussing with some unknown forum member in the barcaforum. The fact that I actually brought in the opinion of a very well known match analysis writer to underline my argument (who is not just a blogger but also a famous writer for the Guardian), whereas Metaphysical didn't have any arguments but "the 3-4-3 won us a crucial game" and "ZM is often wrong", should actually be held in my favour and not against me. But instead the discussion itself completely derailed to a point where I can't form an own opinion because I quote people who agree with my point. The internet.

 

[Metaphysical]

If someone says "we controled the game" and I say: "we didn't", I can't prove it like a mathematical formula can be proven. It's something subjectiv to a certain extend (although stats like shots, possession and the goals conceded are a good hint). So I have to refer to opinions of what other people think. And ZM, of course not THE truth, is still a more trustworthy source than any forum member here. I can't refer to him if I wrote a Ph.D. about sports sciences of course but I can if I'm discussing with some unknown forum member in the barcaforum. The fact that I actually brought in the opinion of a very well known match analysis writer to underline my argument (who is not just a blogger but also a famous writer for the Guardian), whereas Metaphysical didn't have any arguments but "the 3-4-3 won us a crucial game" and "ZM is often wrong", should actually be held in my favour and not against me. But instead the discussion itself completely derailed to a point where I can't form an own opinion because I quote people who agree with my point. The internet.

we won because we dominated the midfield zone.

we dominated the midfield zone because we had 5 men in there against Milan's 4.

we had 5 men in there because we played a 3 man defence.

we also won because Cesc and Xavi were free to run forward from midfield.

Cesc and Xavi were free to run forward from midfield because Messi dropping back into midfield created a midfield 3 rather than 2.

it created a midfield 3 because Busquets and Keita were always back there as a shield.

Busquets and Keita were always back there as a shield because we played a 3 man defence.

now go to sleep.