5 - Carles Puyol

Barcaman

Administrator
Staff member
@ barcelonista

Dude.
Saying that zm is more trustworthy than any forum member here is.... well.. you know.
We have almost 4000 members here despite me deleting those that haven't logged in for a while. Plus.. look just few post above and you'll see a guy callsigned "Meta".
And, I've been here for a while, since Hristo's days and beyond. So I reckon I know what I'm saying.
 
B

barcelonista

Guest
I'm sick of seeing you relying on the arguments of others.

Having proof in form of other sources agreeing with your point isn't called "relying on arguments of others". It's called "q.e.d.". But preach on. ZM is wrong here ... because sometimes he can be wrong (who would have thought that?!).

1. it wasn't a soft penalty.

Nooooo, it wasn't.

Barca were in front again soon after and in somewhat controversial circumstances. Fabregas' lovely ball put Xavi in on goal only for the midfielder to be bundled over by midfielder Alberto Aquilani with referee Wolfgang Stark awarding the spot-kick.

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/report?id=331167&cc=5739

Oh, look, I used other sources again which agree with me. I can't form my own opinion. You win.

I better not quote the die-hard pro Barca Catalan paper "Sport" who described the goal as "something of a gift". That would be too much for you to handle I guess. :lol:

@ barcelonista

Dude.
Saying that zm is more trustworthy than any forum member here is.... well.. you know.
We have almost 4000 members here despite me deleting those that haven't logged in for a while. Plus.. look just few post above and you'll see a guy callsigned "Meta".
And, I've been here for a while, since Hristo's days and beyond. So I reckon I know what I'm saying.

What has you being here since Jesus' birth to do with you being trustworthy in terms of match analysis? ZM is a writer for the Guardian whose blog reaches up to over 200,000 views a week. Yes, he's more trustworthy than a random guy on a barcelona fan board with like 20 active members. But I can quote some of your own forum members from the matchday thread, too. If you prefer that:

Credit to Milan for taking the game to us, been a while since I've seen end to end stuff in a Barca game. Pep just needs to forget about this 3 man defense once and for all though. Play it against the likes of Zaragoza but please do not field it against teams who can exploit it and make us pay. You've tried it enough now Pep...

Was a real soft penalty although some of the yellow cards/non-yellow cards were equally bizarre. Very poor game from Stark.

I cannot accept that Milan scored 2 past us (not lucky this time) and also had another sitter, and a couple more very good chances. The fact that we had even more, is not really comforting for me.

What bugs me, is not so much the 2 goals conceded (which, on its own is bad enough) but the amount of clear-cut chances that Milan enjoyed. They could have won, despite the fact that we created even more opportunities.

Prolly Pep, expected Milan to play ultra-defensively. But they did not, and we could have lost. Even if we did, it would not have been the end of the world, since so many favorites have imploded. But I really think that it would have been a psychological blow for the team to have lost this game to AC Milan.

And let me repeat. This victory, feels like a defeat to me, because of all the chances that AC Milan managed to create.

we dont have the passing game anymore ( look at the statistic tonight-only cca. 450 passes ) and the ball possesion is allso not as last sesson

Pep needs to stop experimenting. That is for sure.

Get that 4-3-3 back on stream. Simple as.

Oh, look, everyone agrees. 3-4-3 totally dominated Milan.



we won because we dominated the midfield zone.

we dominated the midfield zone because we had 5 men in there against Milan's 4.

we had 5 men in there because we played a 3 man defence.

We controled the midfield under Pep in the clasic 4-3-3 ever since he took over. "We dominated the midfield because we now had 5 midfielders because we only played 3 defenders" is one of the most simplistic things I've ever read, making it sound like we just discovered how to dominate a midfield. Really, preach on, had we played 4-3-3, 35 year old Seedorf and 34 year old van Bommel would have run circles around us obviously. A narrow 3-2 over Milan is the proof how good the 3-4-3 worked. :worthy:
 
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La Furia

Legion of Doooom
oOMBn.gif
 

Aryagorn

Improvin' Perfection!!
If we play 3-4-3, it should never be the way Pep has lined up the team for this match... Alves SHOULD be one of the 4. Otherwise it's suicide. Drop a forward, shift MEssi to the right, make the glorious Messi-Alves combo work and add the effect of the excellant CF runs into the box of Cesc Fabregas. That's the only way.

As such our inside forwards are suffering from lack of goals, shouldn't make them suffer even more. No need to crowd the box needlessly
 

zanela

Senior Member
Meta is a big advocate of a 3 man defense, he'll defend it to death. Whilst i'm no fan, i do however agree it offers us tactical versatility, a vital component in our quest for long-lasting dominance.

The 343 has both its pros and cons. And no i don't think we've mastered the system yet, to be able to control these games. Personally thought we didn't look too assuring in both the Milan and Madrid games and they could've gone either way if there wasn't the small matter of luck involved. We looked better in the sec half of El Clásico(post xavi goal), but any lead against our arch-rivals has always served as a morale-booster for us, and as we grew in confidence their squandered chances dented theirs.
As Meta has already noted the 343 is a highly demanding set-up, which means all your players need to be on their toe at all times. And to achieve it on a regular basis when your season is blighted by injuries, poor form, or lack of effort in some cases is a big ask. Hence, it hasn't produced the desired result.
But with players on better form and familiarization of the system over a season could potentially surprise the sceptics. (including moi :p)

Be it 433 or 343, 2 stopper CBs can't work together. Piqué is a must.
 
B

barcelonista

Guest
If we play 3-4-3, it should never be the way Pep has lined up the team for this match... Alves SHOULD be one of the 4. Otherwise it's suicide. Drop a forward, shift MEssi to the right, make the glorious Messi-Alves combo work and add the effect of the excellant CF runs into the box of Cesc Fabregas. That's the only way.

As such our inside forwards are suffering from lack of goals, shouldn't make them suffer even more. No need to crowd the box needlessly

4-3-3 > 3-4-3 in how Pep uses it. You just have to look at the average positioning of the players in our 4-3-3 and compare it with the average positioning in our 3-4-3.

4-3-3 looks something like this:

Winger---------------------------------------Winger------
----------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------Messi------------------Alves--
------------Iniesta----------------------------------------
-------------------------------------Xavi------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------Busquets--------------------------
Abidal------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------Pique-----------Puyol--------------

The 3-4-3 like this:

Winger-------------------------------------------------Alves
------------------------------Messi--------------------------
----------------------Fabregas-------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------
--------------Iniesta----------------------Xavi----------------
--------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------Busquets---------------------------------
Abidal--------------------------------Pique---------------Puyol

No wonder we aren't controlling games as good anymore as we used to do in the 4-3-3. In the 3-4-3 Busquets is busy functioning as a centre back and defensive midfielder at the same time. Alves doesn't make penetrating runs from deep because now he's playing permanentely upfront which also takes a passing option away from Xavi to make his trademark diagonal passes to Alves to catch defenses on surprise (also Alves is not a good enough finisher to play permanentely upfront). Fabregas doesn't participate in any passing game in the middle appropriate enough for a Barcelona midfielder. And once oppositions put pressure on the wings, we lose our whole shape, since Alves is covering a whole flank on his own (he got totally raped by Alba-Mathieu, not because Pique wasn't there but because 3-4-3 means that you'll get outnumbered on the wings since you don't have full back + winger working together but a winger and a static centre back).

In our 4-3-3 we had a proven diamond of Busquets-Xavi-Iniesta-Messi with Alves bombing forward and catching defenses on surprise and 2 proven goalscorers on the wings = beautiful tiki-taka + 75 % possession. Our 3-4-3 means that we're playing a fullback as a winger, a centre back as a fullback and Busquets as a centre half with Fabregas as a CF = total shit.

3-4-3 should only be used against bus parkers as a plan B. Our home record is so much better than our away record because teams usually have a more defensive approach in the Camp Nou. And if they sit back, yes, 3-4-3 will totally annihilate them. If we're playing away, teams have a go at us infront of their own fans and pressure exposes the 3-4-3. In 3-4-3 you get outpressed and outnumbered far far easier than playing 4-3-3. Our away record of 3 wins in 8 games with a goal difference of 11:9 this season doesn't have anything to do with the appearance of 3-4-3 this season? :lol: :lol: :lol: Mourinho really got into Pep's head last season when he parked the bus with Pepe in the middle, changing from a 2 man midfield to a 3 man midfield. Now Pep thinks he must put one more player in the middle again so it is 3 vs. 4 = more midfield dominance again.

Some stats with 3-4-3 so far:

Against Real Madrid (1-3):

62 % possession
17 shots (!!!) for Real Madrid vs. 12 shots from Barcelona
two 100 % chances missed by Ronaldo
huge Xavi deflected goal
= lucky result

Against Milan (2-3):

59 % possession
Milan 13 shots vs. Barcelona 16 shots
result: 2-3 due to a lucky penalty

Against Espanyol (1-1):

61 % possession
Espanyol 14 shots vs. Barcelona 10 shots
result = lol, we beat them 5-1 at their place last season

Just as a comparison:

Last season:

Manchester United CL final:

68 % possession
13:1 attempts on target
3-1 end result (Rooney offside goal)

Real Madrid semi-final second leg (1-1):

65 % possession
Barca 11 shots vs. RM 3 shots
1-1 end result, not our best game result wise, but still only 3 shot allowed on our goal when they went all attack



Go to the comments section @ totalbarca after today's game and check how culés are fuming because of the 3-4-3: http://www.totalbarca.com/2012/matches/the-result-fc-barcelona-4-2-real-betis/

Meta is a big advocate of a 3 man defense, he'll defend it to death. Whilst i'm no fan, i do however agree it offers us tactical versatility, a vital component in our quest for long-lasting dominance.

The 343 has both its pros and cons. And no i don't think we've mastered the system yet, to be able to control these games. Personally thought we didn't look too assuring in both the Milan and Madrid games and they could've gone either way if there wasn't the small matter of luck involved. We looked better in the sec half of El Clásico(post xavi goal), but any lead against our arch-rivals has always served as a morale-booster for us, and as we grew in confidence their squandered chances dented theirs.
As Meta has already noted the 343 is a highly demanding set-up, which means all your players need to be on their toe at all times. And to achieve it on a regular basis when your season is blighted by injuries, poor form, or lack of effort in some cases is a big ask. Hence, it hasn't produced the desired result.
But with players on better form and familiarization of the system over a season could potentially surprise the sceptics. (including moi :p)

Be it 433 or 343, 2 stopper CBs can't work together. Piqué is a must.

I totally agree with every point you made.
 

Aryagorn

Improvin' Perfection!!
I think it would be best if Messi is played as the right forward in that 4-3-3 and Cesc played centrally...against buses. And Alexis essentially at the LF position.
 
B

barcelonista

Guest
Give me a break. It was a dive, and the ref would have been entirely correct to show a yellow card to Xavi for it.

Incidentally, Barcelona played a hybrid defense against Real, not a straight 3-4-3 or 4-3-3.

It turned out to become a hybrid system with Busquets covering 2 positions because of Real Madrid's pressing. It destroyed our whole (planned) shape:

Average positioning:

Barca-Real3.jpg


I very much doubt Pep planned to start with a flat 4-4-2 in the first half. :lol: It turned out to become one simply because they outpressed us, so we congested the middle.

I fear the day we'll start 3-4-3 against Mourinho for the second time. He will exploit it so much, Pep won't know what hit him.
 

Maria

New member
@barrcelonista

I agree that we have problems with this implementing this system, but manny goals that we received were due to individual mistakes..and how about the games against Getafe or Sevilla? We can blame the 3-4-3 for their outcome to?

1.Against Real Madrid (1-3):
62 % possession
17 shots (!!!) for Real Madrid vs. 12 shots from Barcelona
two 100 % chances missed by Ronaldo
huge Xavi deflected goal
= lucky result

2.Against Milan (2-3):

59 % possession
Milan 13 shots vs. Barcelona 16 shots
result: 2-3 due to a lucky penalty

3.Against Espanyol (1-1):

61 % possession
Espanyol 14 shots vs. Barcelona 10 shots
result = lol, we beat them 5-1 at their place last season


1.How manny shot were on target?
From those 2 chances Cristiano had only the open header was a 100% chance..in the second one he should have passed to Di Maria. If Cristiano's header was a 100%, so it was Xavi's one.
The goal scored by RM I guess is due to the 3-4-3 we used if its not worth mentioning.

2.I see in this hame it doesn't matter anymore the number of shots each team had, but the fact that we got a lucky penalty. I guess that if we were playing a 4-3-3 the result would have been something like a 3-0, with 70% posession.

3. Lol, we beat at their place last year, but only because we had Pedro and Messi who made a difference because the game was very similar to this one. We also didn't beat them 2 years ago, but I guess that doesn't suit you argument because we weren't playing a 3-4-3.

Also, if you seem so keen to compare games from this year with games from last year, I would like to see some more stats from: the Espanyol game away, the away game against Arsenal, the CdR final, the Liga game at the Bernabeu and the home game against Milan. If you want to make a genuine debate, you should at least present all the facts.
 

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