6 - Carles Alena

[tacticvarium]

It's not Rakitić who is stilling Aleñá's minutes.
It's Valverde.
Aleñá will probably get more minutes but I doubt 10 points lead will drastically change his situation given that how cautious and cowardly has been.

 

[soul24rage]

The only problem is what if the bad guy (Rakitic, and other bad guys like Coutinho, and Suarez and Roberto, and until half way through the season apparently Pique--though I guess he has redeemed himself like Anakin Skywalker) is part of a historic season with some good guys (Messi, Busi, youngins like Arthur) and some good guys (Alena) take no part in the big moments. And then of course we are managed by Darth Sidious. Oh real life is so complicated.

I prefer to have no good or bad guys on my team, in fact if they wear the bluegrana, give effort on the pitch, and clearly have one another's back-- they are all good guys to me. That is how I see it.

So is Messi like Rey because he's so good at everything?

 

[God Serena]

So is Messi like Rey because he's so good at everything?

If Rey had to play football she'd be even better than Messi. Would never have a shot off target. Would never have a shot get saved, even. 99 in all stats on her Fifa card. And all of this while playing against men. She'd be unstoppable.

 

[Havesaks]

I thought those qualities may come good for any team, including 5 continents...


at "- being a fairly scientific entity - deserves a bit more pragmatic definition.
But in case the definition is simply based upon observing many different players with various characteristics, then I sadly give up, because there's no use to argue about highly subjective views related to a rather objective question.

Still, I'd be interested in BBZ's definition, specially that now he seems to write even more cryptic tohuva-bohu, compared to his usual stuff...

While true there arent that many Clubs who have a total-football ideal and identity like barca.

Man, dont take the term that seriously. This aint science. a way to say a player has charateristics to play for barcas and plays with charateristics similar to the ideal (cruyff) we ideally want to play here.

What objective question?

 

[BarçaBarça]

Rakitic has been crucial for all Barca's managers too.

Anyway, imo, it all comes down (with fans) to a good old: who is more Barca's Dna player or who is better in terms of attacking or build up.

So, if Busquets and Rakitic played equal amount of minutes and if they have played equally as bad, ask an average Barca's fan: which one of those two should be subbed off in the 70th minute, to make room for Alena, young, domestic, Barca Dna player, who is quite attacking minded?
Let's be honest, majority of fans will say: Rakitic needs to come off.

Or, the same, if Rakitic, Busquets and Arthur would have played the same amount of minutes and if they would have played equally as good or bad, in the eyes of an average fan, out of those 3, who will be the first pick to get subbed so that Alena can step in?
Rakitic, of course.

Busquets is Barca's Dna player and domestic/club's legend.
Two points for him in hearts of a majority.
Arthur is Barca's Dna player and young.
Two points for him also.
Rakitic is neither young, domestic or Barca's Dna player.
0 points for Rakitic.
Alena and Puig=3 points.

So, let's be honest.
You can hide behind Rakitic's minutes, but he will always be the first pick.
Also, I can't imagine a situation where an average fan would pick Arthur in between these 3 to be subbed first.

Valverde has picked his subs 2 days before the match has even started.
But, so did our fans.

True, but you are missing one factor: When people "think/believe" a player is La Masia = Denis Suarez
People were covering/excusing his bang average performances for us, because they thought he had La Masia vibe (in reality he was bought to the b-team from mancity).

Your post is right though, everyone has their favourites, and most agree that Alena should be integrated into the team these seasons. The scapegoats, however differ between people and barcaforum will rarely shit on Busquets even though he has been way below his toplevel for years - it's blasphemy to point out. Or let me phrase it otherwise: With Rakitic people are hating on him for playing too much and being average, while with Busquets the perspective is that if he plays too much it can be the reason why he doesn't perform at toplevel and it is the coachs/boards fault that he is not rested more. I have not seen many say that Rakitic needs rest, so that he can reach a higher performancelevel, which would benefit the team. In the end, that should be what we all agree on, that the team as a whole should be benefited.

 

[George_Costanza]

Joan and others answered.
A few possible lineups to rest players:
Busi - Rakitic, Arthur
Busi - Rakitic, Alena
Busi - Arthur, Alena
Rakitic pivot - Arthur, Alena
Arthur pivot - Rakitic, Alena
Roberto pivot - Rakitic, Alena
Roberto pivot - Arthur, Alena

So, you see, ALL: Rakitic, Busquets and Arthur are "stealing" Alena's minutes.

But as others also said, you will never hear:
Let's bench Arthur to give minutes to Alena.
Or a blasphemy like: let's play 442, bench Dembele and play a 4-men midfield with Alena.

EV has his own lineup and some favorites, true, like any of us.

And majority of people on this forum will be unhappy until EV will play one of these:
1. Mats - Alba, Umtiti/Lenglet, Semedo - Busi, Raki, Arthur - Dembele, Suarez, Messi.
Subs after 60 minutes:
Raki out, Alena in
Suarez out, Messi to false 9, Malcom on the left, Dembele on the right

Or
2. Mats - Alba, Umtiti/Lenglet, Pique, Semedo - Busi, Arthur, Coutinho - Dembe, Suarez, Messi
Alena in for Coutinho after 60 mins
Malcom in for Suarez

Or, the most attacking and with all young hopes in a team:
Mats - Alba, Umtiti/Lenglet, Pique, SEMEDO - Busi, ARTHUR, ALENA - MALCOM, Messi false 9, DEMBELE.

If we'll buy Frenkie and Jovic, people will whine until our lineup will be:
Busi, FRENKIE, ARTHUR - DEMBELE, JOVIC, Messi
ALENA in after 60 minutes.
I guess that people then will finally ask for Busi being subbed, since Arthur and Frenkie will get more love.
In attack: MALCOM in for someone after 60 minutes.

If we'll buy DeLight, the same:
EV will be an idiot until he'll play Alba, someone, De Light, Semedo - Busi, Frenkie, Arthur - Dembele, Jovic, Messi.
That is 5 kids in a team.
With kids Alena, Malcom and Puig being 3 subs.

Where will Rakitic, Vidal, Suarez, Roberto play?
Nobody cares.

Dembele, Frenkie, Arthur, Malcom, Alena, Puig (and De Light) are now the highest in the pecking order and Ev's formation, tactics, lineup and subs must be accomodated to suit these players.

More or less, paired with our not too brautiful football, Ernie not playing forum's young favorites is the biggest reason why he is hated here, inspite of good results.

Basically, that is also an answer why people are calling Rakitic as EV's lover and not Busi or Arthur, who have started all matches in the last 2-3 Months.

Forum's favorites in this order:
1-2. Young players, Barca's Dna, La Masia products (Alena, Puig)
1-2. Tied with world class foreign young players with Barca's Dna (Arthur, Frenkie, De Light)
3. Barca's Dna, La Masia, old players (Busi aged 30+)
4. Barca's Dna, old players (Frenkie and Arthur aged 30)
5. Nobody cares level: Rakitic, Vidal, Suarez, Paulinho, Gomes, Arda, Rafinha, Rabiot.

Am I suppose to go over all those combos to justify that Arthur is way more impoerant than Raki for the team? And Arthur is way more needed that Raki?

 

[BBZ8800]

I also thought that "DNA" - being a fairly scientific entity - deserves a bit more pragmatic definition.
Still, I'd be interested in BBZ's definition, specially that now he seems to write even more cryptic tohuva-bohu, compared to his usual stuff...

After reading this forum for 5 years, these are some classic and most loved traits:

1. good technique
2. good passes
3. good and silky ball control
4. good and silky first touch
5. players who move a lot off the ball (it usually helps if you are shorter and lighter, since it is easier to move a lot and move fast)
6. in general: midfielders who are somewhat attacking minded with a shiny technique, passes and first touch (Xavi, Iniesta, Denis Suarez, Gundogan, David Silva, Bernardo Silva, Modric, Thiago Alcantara, Fabregas, Alena, Puig, and NOT players like Rakitic, Paulinho, Gomes, Rabiot, Casemiro etc), or attackers/wingers who resemble somewhat on Messi, Ronaldinho or Joga Bonita football (Halilovic, Dembele, Malcom, Sane, Sterling).
Not attackers like Mandzukic, Ibrahimovic, Diego Costa, Suarez, Cavani.

In our current team, Barca's DNA midfielders and attackers are:
Messi
Dembele
Malcom
Arthur
Busi
Alena
Puig
Frenkie
Oriol

Players who are NOT:
Rakitic
Suarez
Vidal

It is quite predictable from space who will be fan's favorites and who will have the highest number of votes to be benched, subbed or sold.
(Rakitic needs to be sold so that Barca's DNA Frenkie, Arthur, Alena and Puig could play. The same with Suarez: sell or bench him so that Jovic, with silkier pass and first touch can play).

It is actually quite simple and predictable.

True, but you are missing one factor: When people "think/believe" a player is La Masia = Denis Suarez
People were covering/excusing his bang average performances for us, because they thought he had La Masia vibe (in reality he was bought to the b-team from mancity).

Regarding why Denis earned way more love than Gomes, even though they were both shit, and Denis is a way weaker footballer overally:
Denis:
1. young in terms of age=check
2. somewhat a La Masia product=check
3. a famous: he is (young) and "has potential"=check
4. has some Barca's DNA traits in him, like nice passes, nice technique, some silky touches, he is more attacking minded than defensive minded, he moves off the ball=check

The same is with Halilovic, Puig or any similar player:
Halilovic when he came:
1. young in terms of age=check
2. somewhat a La Masia product=check. He came to Barca B also.
3. a famous: he is (young) and "has potential"=check
4. has some Barca's DNA traits in him, like nice passes, nice technique, some silky touches, he is more attacking minded than defensive minded, he moves off the ball=check

Not too many cared about:
1. IQ=who cares?
2. his lack of defending=who needs that? We are Barca
3. his horrible physique=a famous reply: Xavi or Iniesta were similar and look what we have achieved with them
4. a lack of professionalism=he is young. He will improve in that area
5. horrible decisions, being selfish=he will improve over years

The same could apply for Puig now, just check 3-4 main factors to get an insane amount of love from forum fans:
Puig:
1. young in terms of age=check
2. somewhat a La Masia product=check
3. a famous: he is (young) and "has potential"=check
4. has some Barca's DNA traits in him, like nice passes, nice technique, some silky touches, he is more attacking minded than defensive minded, he moves off the ball=check
How can an average Barca fan not jump on a hype train?
He has every single ingredient needed, for "a perfect player according to this forum".

Again, some pros like:
1. extremely weak physique=who cares, look at Xavi and Iniesta reply
2. bad decisions in a final third due to IQ or weak physique=that will improve
3. we have tons of similar players in a team=who cares?
4. we have too many (SIMILAR) players on his position=who cares?

On the other hand, look at players like Rakitic, Paulinho, Gomes, Rabiot:
Rakitic:
1. young in terms of age=No
2. somewhat a La Masia product=No
3. a famous: he is (young) and "has potential"=No
4. has some Barca's DNA traits in him, like nice passes, nice technique, some silky touches, he is more attacking minded than defensive minded, he moves off the ball=No
0 out of 4 needed traits.
Of course that a forum don't love him.

Rabiot:
1. young in terms of age=yes
2. somewhat a La Masia product=no
3. a famous: he is (young) and "has potential"=not too much, according to majority here
4. has some Barca's DNA traits in him, like nice passes, nice technique, some silky touches, he is more attacking minded than defensive minded, he moves off the ball=no
Rabiot has 1 or 1,5 out of 4 traits.
Not too much love for him.

Paulinho:
1. young in terms of age=no
2. somewhat a La Masia product=no
3. a famous: he is (young) and "has potential"=no
4. has some Barca's DNA traits in him, like nice passes, nice technique, some silky touches, he is more attacking minded than defensive minded, he moves off the ball=no
0 out of 4 traits

Gomes:
1. young in terms of age=yes
2. somewhat a La Masia product=no
3. a famous: he is (young) and "has potential"=no
4. has some Barca's DNA traits in him, like nice passes, nice technique, some silky touches, he is more attacking minded than defensive minded, he moves off the ball=no
1 out of 4 traits

It is quite predictable after some time.
For example, the hardest thing for us is to find a new pivot, aka a defensive minded player:
Rakitic has 0/4 traits.
Rabiot has 1 or 1,5/4 traits.

On the other hand, a young La Masia kid Oriol:
1. young in terms of age=check
2. somewhat a La Masia product=check
3. a famous: he is (young) and "has potential"=check
4. has some Barca's DNA traits in him, like nice passes, nice technique, some silky touches, he is more attacking minded than defensive minded, he moves off the ball=not an attacking minded, but he has nice Barca's DNA moves.
So, Oriol has 3,5 out of 4 traits.
Of course that he is more liked than Rabiot or Rakitic.

From other pivots, who is liked by our fanbase?
Only Ndombele.
Do you know why?
It is quite simple again:
1. young in terms of age=check
2. somewhat a La Masia product=no
3. a famous: he is (young) and "has potential"=check
4. has some Barca's DNA traits in him, like nice passes, nice technique, some silky touches, he is more attacking minded than defensive minded, he moves off the ball=He is a pivot with silky touches, dribbles, Barca's DNA traits.
So, 2,5 or 3 traits for him.

This forum just hates players who are:
1. older than 23
2. not from La Masia
3. who are defensive minded
4. who don't ooze with shiny touches, dribbles and off the ball movement.

If we'll sign Rabiot, we will read all the time: out of Frenkie, Arthur, Rabiot=Rabiot needs to be subbed off after 60 minutes so that Alena or Puig could enter.
Frenkie or Arthur will never get called by our fans to be subbed.
This forum is always for subbing players with the weakest attacking skills, even though we are leading 3:0 and we need to calm down, slow down and keep the lead until the final whistle.

Your post is right though, everyone has their favourites, and most agree that Alena should be integrated into the team these seasons. The scapegoats, however differ between people and barcaforum will rarely shit on Busquets even though he has been way below his toplevel for years - it's blasphemy to point out. Or let me phrase it otherwise: With Rakitic people are hating on him for playing too much and being average, while with Busquets the perspective is that if he plays too much it can be the reason why he doesn't perform at toplevel and it is the coachs/boards fault that he is not rested more. I have not seen many say that Rakitic needs rest, so that he can reach a higher performancelevel, which would benefit the team. In the end, that should be what we all agree on, that the team as a whole should be benefited.

I don't have anything against Alena.
He has some nice skills and is quite motivated and brave.

But I find it really funny that we always hear: Oh, no, Rakitic is playing. What does Alena have to do to get a start?
Yet, we never hear: oh, fucking no, Arthur is starting his 6th match in row. Does he have EV's nudes or what? Why doesn't a stupid coach bench Arthur for a while and give some time to our kid Alena?

As I have said, people are laughing at EV for having the same subs every time.
But fans are having the same ideas.
No matter how good/bad Arthur plays, fans would always like to see HIM on a pitch and Raki needs to come off.
Also, people will never say: sub Dembele or Frenkie.
If they'll play well=keep them on a field, let them improve and gain more confidence.
If they'll play bad=well, they are young and they need time and confidence. And a stupid coach is killing their confidence with subbing them instead of "obvious picks" like Rakitic and Suarez, who are "incidentally" not Barca's DNA players and NOT young.

A rocket science, really

 

[BarçaBarça]

After reading this forum for 5 years, these are some classic and most loved traits:

1. good technique
2. good passes
3. good and silky ball control
4. good and silky first touch
5. players who move a lot off the ball (it usually helps if you are shorter and lighter, since it is easier to move a lot and move fast)
6. in general: midfielders who are somewhat attacking minded with a shiny technique, passes and first touch

Players who are NOT:
Rakitic
Suarez
Vidal

It is quite predictable from space who will be fan's favorites and who will have the highest number of votes to be benched, subbed or sold.
(Rakitic needs to be sold so that Barca's DNA Frenkie, Arthur, Alena and Puig could play. The same with Suarez: sell or bench him so that Jovic, with silkier pass and first touch can play).

It is actually quite simple and predictable.

Funny thing is that to me Rakitic is one of the most versatile midfielders out there. He can both integrate in forward-playing quick-passes and deliver silky technical difficult assists and the other half of the game defend along side or instead of Busquets with great anticipation. He can score screamers with volleys, chip it like Messi, make those deep runs into space when defenders are unaware. He is quite complete, and most of all he has that insane stamina which every damn coach seems to exploit to the max by playing him any minute instead of giving him some rest from time to time to recover. Everyone agrees that Busquets is slow, but noone gives Raktic credit for being the workhorse in the Busquets-Iniesta-Raktic-midfield where we played we 3 attackers who never tracked back - it was essential to have him for MSN to succeed, imo. Now he is more replaceable, because in the end we don't need to field 3 attackers and has got other midfielders as well. Still, he is underrated, even by our own fanbase, it is quite strange, tbh.

I like those Barca-DNA-players as well, and the trouble is that Arthur/De Jong etc. might have come a season or 2 too late. We needed to rotate more earlier and regain control of the midfield. We just can't play with Puig in a Alena-De Jong midfield as some dream of, we would be slaughtered. We need a mix and Rakitic has been great for that.

 

[Messigician]

After reading this forum for 5 years, these are some classic and most loved traits:

1. good technique
2. good passes
3. good and silky ball control
4. good and silky first touch
5. players who move a lot off the ball (it usually helps if you are shorter and lighter, since it is easier to move a lot and move fast)
6. in general: midfielders who are somewhat attacking minded with a shiny technique, passes and first touch (Xavi, Iniesta, Denis Suarez, Gundogan, David Silva, Bernardo Silva, Modric, Thiago Alcantara, Fabregas, Alena, Puig, and NOT players like Rakitic, Paulinho, Gomes, Rabiot, Casemiro etc), or attackers/wingers who resemble somewhat on Messi, Ronaldinho or Joga Bonita football (Halilovic, Dembele, Malcom, Sane, Sterling).
Not attackers like Mandzukic, Ibrahimovic, Diego Costa, Suarez, Cavani.

In our current team, Barca's DNA midfielders and attackers are:
Messi
Dembele
Malcom
Arthur
Busi
Alena
Puig
Frenkie
Oriol

Players who are NOT:
Rakitic
Suarez
Vidal

It is quite predictable from space who will be fan's favorites and who will have the highest number of votes to be benched, subbed or sold.
(Rakitic needs to be sold so that Barca's DNA Frenkie, Arthur, Alena and Puig could play. The same with Suarez: sell or bench him so that Jovic, with silkier pass and first touch can play).

It is actually quite simple and predictable.



Regarding why Denis earned way more love than Gomes, even though they were both shit, and Denis is a way weaker footballer overally:
Denis:
1. young in terms of age=check
2. somewhat a La Masia product=check
3. a famous: he is (young) and "has potential"=check
4. has some Barca's DNA traits in him, like nice passes, nice technique, some silky touches, he is more attacking minded than defensive minded, he moves off the ball=check

The same is with Halilovic, Puig or any similar player:
Halilovic when he came:
1. young in terms of age=check
2. somewhat a La Masia product=check. He came to Barca B also.
3. a famous: he is (young) and "has potential"=check
4. has some Barca's DNA traits in him, like nice passes, nice technique, some silky touches, he is more attacking minded than defensive minded, he moves off the ball=check

Not too many cared about:
1. IQ=who cares?
2. his lack of defending=who needs that? We are Barca
3. his horrible physique=a famous reply: Xavi or Iniesta were similar and look what we have achieved with them
4. a lack of professionalism=he is young. He will improve in that area
5. horrible decisions, being selfish=he will improve over years

The same could apply for Puig now, just check 3-4 main factors to get an insane amount of love from forum fans:
Puig:
1. young in terms of age=check
2. somewhat a La Masia product=check
3. a famous: he is (young) and "has potential"=check
4. has some Barca's DNA traits in him, like nice passes, nice technique, some silky touches, he is more attacking minded than defensive minded, he moves off the ball=check
How can an average Barca fan not jump on a hype train?
He has every single ingredient needed, for "a perfect player according to this forum".

Again, some pros like:
1. extremely weak physique=who cares, look at Xavi and Iniesta reply
2. bad decisions in a final third due to IQ or weak physique=that will improve
3. we have tons of similar players in a team=who cares?
4. we have too many (SIMILAR) players on his position=who cares?

On the other hand, look at players like Rakitic, Paulinho, Gomes, Rabiot:
Rakitic:
1. young in terms of age=No
2. somewhat a La Masia product=No
3. a famous: he is (young) and "has potential"=No
4. has some Barca's DNA traits in him, like nice passes, nice technique, some silky touches, he is more attacking minded than defensive minded, he moves off the ball=No
0 out of 4 needed traits.
Of course that a forum don't love him.

Rabiot:
1. young in terms of age=yes
2. somewhat a La Masia product=no
3. a famous: he is (young) and "has potential"=not too much, according to majority here
4. has some Barca's DNA traits in him, like nice passes, nice technique, some silky touches, he is more attacking minded than defensive minded, he moves off the ball=no
Rabiot has 1 or 1,5 out of 4 traits.
Not too much love for him.

Paulinho:
1. young in terms of age=no
2. somewhat a La Masia product=no
3. a famous: he is (young) and "has potential"=no
4. has some Barca's DNA traits in him, like nice passes, nice technique, some silky touches, he is more attacking minded than defensive minded, he moves off the ball=no
0 out of 4 traits

Gomes:
1. young in terms of age=yes
2. somewhat a La Masia product=no
3. a famous: he is (young) and "has potential"=no
4. has some Barca's DNA traits in him, like nice passes, nice technique, some silky touches, he is more attacking minded than defensive minded, he moves off the ball=no
1 out of 4 traits

It is quite predictable after some time.
For example, the hardest thing for us is to find a new pivot, aka a defensive minded player:
Rakitic has 0/4 traits.
Rabiot has 1 or 1,5/4 traits.

On the other hand, a young La Masia kid Oriol:
1. young in terms of age=check
2. somewhat a La Masia product=check
3. a famous: he is (young) and "has potential"=check
4. has some Barca's DNA traits in him, like nice passes, nice technique, some silky touches, he is more attacking minded than defensive minded, he moves off the ball=not an attacking minded, but he has nice Barca's DNA moves.
So, Oriol has 3,5 out of 4 traits.
Of course that he is more liked than Rabiot or Rakitic.

From other pivots, who is liked by our fanbase?
Only Ndombele.
Do you know why?
It is quite simple again:
1. young in terms of age=check
2. somewhat a La Masia product=no
3. a famous: he is (young) and "has potential"=check
4. has some Barca's DNA traits in him, like nice passes, nice technique, some silky touches, he is more attacking minded than defensive minded, he moves off the ball=He is a pivot with silky touches, dribbles, Barca's DNA traits.
So, 2,5 or 3 traits for him.

This forum just hates players who are:
1. older than 23
2. not from La Masia
3. who are defensive minded
4. who don't ooze with shiny touches, dribbles and off the ball movement.

If we'll sign Rabiot, we will read all the time: out of Frenkie, Arthur, Rabiot=Rabiot needs to be subbed off after 60 minutes so that Alena or Puig could enter.
Frenkie or Arthur will never get called by our fans to be subbed.
This forum is always for subbing players with the weakest attacking skills, even though we are leading 3:0 and we need to calm down, slow down and keep the lead until the final whistle.



I don't have anything against Alena.
He has some nice skills and is quite motivated and brave.

But I find it really funny that we always hear: Oh, no, Rakitic is playing. What does Alena have to do to get a start?
Yet, we never hear: oh, fucking no, Arthur is starting his 6th match in row. Does he have EV's nudes or what? Why doesn't a stupid coach bench Arthur for a while and give some time to our kid Alena?

As I have said, people are laughing at EV for having the same subs every time.
But fans are having the same ideas.
No matter how good/bad Arthur plays, fans would always like to see HIM on a pitch and Raki needs to come off.
Also, people will never say: sub Dembele or Frenkie.
If they'll play well=keep them on a field, let them improve and gain more confidence.
If they'll play bad=well, they are young and they need time and confidence. And a stupid coach is killing their confidence with subbing them instead of "obvious picks" like Rakitic and Suarez, who are "incidentally" not Barca's DNA players and NOT young.

A rocket science, really

Very high quality post. +1

 

[Potroh]

1. good technique
2. good passes
3. good and silky ball control
4. good and silky first touch
5. players who move a lot off the ball (it usually helps if you are shorter and lighter, since it is easier to move a lot and move fast)
6. in general: midfielders who are somewhat attacking minded with a shiny technique, passes and first touch (Xavi, Iniesta, Denis Suarez, Gundogan, David Silva, Bernardo Silva, Modric, Thiago Alcantara, Fabregas, Alena, Puig, and NOT players like Rakitic, Paulinho, Gomes, Rabiot, Casemiro etc), or attackers/wingers who resemble somewhat on Messi, Ronaldinho or Joga Bonita football (Halilovic, Dembele, Malcom, Sane, Sterling).
Not attackers like Mandzukic, Ibrahimovic, Diego Costa, Suarez, Cavani.

Thanks for the "DNA" clarification, I really appreciate it, even if I don't really agree upon that artificial categorization.
Some simple related remarks - if you do not mind:

1. "good technique", "good passes", "good and silky ball control", "good and silky first touch" - are NOT separate things, the very word or notion of technique contains all of that. There are very few gifted and skilled players worldwide, who would have a bad first touch, but were otherwise able to provide "good and silky ball control".
2. The DNA categorization is therefore artificial. You could easily substitute it with "technically skilled" - as a single concept.
3. What you name as "Barca DNA" is nothing else but general notion towards skill and technique, that is indeed inherent of Barca and its history, but obviously can be find everywhere.

players who move a lot off the ball (it usually helps if you are shorter and lighter, since it is easier to move a lot and move fast)

I do agree with preferring the players described above, that's the reason why I do NOT understand your personal posts for quite some years, which every time cried for TALL and physically strong midfielders (even attackers in case of Neymar, when you had to bash him for something...).

The categorizations of "-young age, -somewhat a La Masia, -has potential and -has some Barca's DNA" are again actually broad simplifications, quite artificially trying to fill a table with ingredients, that you have found prominent, although there could be easily another 15 points or categories.
But these 4 points back up your present agenda, thus you fill the table (shuffle the cards) according to what you want to come out of them.

This forum is always for subbing players with the weakest attacking skills, even though we are leading 3:0 and we need to calm down, slow down and keep the lead until the final whistle.

This is a view that is very dangerous in the world of football.
You have to first of all decide and hence declare that the Barca tradition were a typically offensive or defensive bunch of different strategies.
- If named as being offensive, and at the same time it represents the possible highest qualities of that, then there is no need to "calm down" and "keep the lead until the final whistle", because only those teams do that, who aren't strong enough offensively but "somehow" or luckily could excruciate or bait one or two goals, and then try to get hold on to that result. That is most definitely not the Barca mentality!
- That is the slogan of the weaker and luckier teams, Barca has enough offensive potential NOT to depend on that.
- If you want Barca to be more defensive, that's your (and Valverde's) problem. The moment it happens, Barca will fall to be a mediocre mid-table-rider...

I don't have anything against Alena. He has some nice skills and is quite motivated and brave.

We seem to agree here.
But alas, Alena will hardly be ever a starter in a good Barca. He is good, but not good enough to be one. He is a Roberto-level talent only.

And a stupid coach is killing their confidence with subbing them instead of "obvious picks"

A bad coach is indeed capable of killing the overall confidence of a player.
I have rarely or never seen for instance Dembele being tired, but he is substituted each and every time, which is not a good sign for a player.
It only works if the substitutions are either based on valid or fortuitous tactical considerations OR based upon the actual performance of the given player.
(If for instance: if Suarez doesn't have a single appraisable touch during the entire game, but someone else - who played outstandingly - is substituted) the player's confidence is wounded, either knowingly or otherwise.

There are coaches who pay thorough attention to this, whereas other coaches (like EV) do not care for its restrain-effect. They will always suffer in the long run...

 

[Gnidrologist]

he has that insane stamina

It's easy to have insane stamina, while jogging around in a 10 meter radius somewhere behind Busquets most of the match. He maybe versatile mid as you say, but days when he used it have long gone. Makes some good plays here and there, but mostly helps Busi as twin pivot with very little additional responsibilities.

 

[BBZ8800]

This is a view that is very dangerous in the world of football.
You have to first of all decide and hence declare that the Barca tradition were a typically offensive or defensive bunch of different strategies.
- If named as being offensive, and at the same time it represents the possible highest qualities of that, then there is no need to "calm down" and "keep the lead until the final whistle", because only those teams do that, who aren't strong enough offensively but "somehow" or luckily could excruciate or bait one or two goals, and then try to get hold on to that result. That is most definitely not the Barca mentality!
- That is the slogan of the weaker and luckier teams, Barca has enough offensive potential NOT to depend on that.
- If you want Barca to be more defensive, that's your (and Valverde's) problem. The moment it happens, Barca will fall to be a mediocre mid-table-rider...

Pep won CLs with playing all out attack all the time.
Yet, he had prime Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Busi, Alves.
And even then, we couldn't win against Chelsea in 2009, Inter 2010, Chelsea 2012.

So, our all out attacking tactical approach wasn't THAT efficient even with our best coach and best generation ever.
Go back to 90s and 00s, before Pep, that approach from our team always resulted in naive 1/4s and 1/2s CL's exits.

The only time between 1992 and 2009 when we won a CL, was when Rijkaard adopted a mix of attacking and defensive approach (when needed).
I have wrote in some other topics, after winning 2:1 at Stamford Bridge in 2006, he played at Camp Nou with Motta-Edmilson-Deco trio, even though Iniesta was fit.
He played at home with CB Oleguer as a RB, even though "a normal, attacking" RB Belletti was alive and fit.

Rijkaard repeated the same against Milan in semis at home.
And again started a CL final with 2 pivots and Oleguer as a RB, even though he had, for example, more attacking minded and more technical options in Iniesta and Belletti.

So, imo, NO. Attacking like crazy no matter what is NOT Barca's way.
Some Barcas played all out attack no matter what (and those Barcas from 90s and 00s couldn't win CLs).
And Pep's Barca, with the best generation ever, struggled against Chelsea, Inter and Chelsea in Pep's 4 years.
Not to mention that Pep's Barca and Pep's teams away results in CL knockout matches are almost abysmal due to his stubborn all out attack approach no matter what.

So, I personally don't see anything wrong with closing down the game at 2:0 or 3:0 and slowing down.
Some people will reply: we lost to Roma that way.
True.
Well, we lost 20 times in the last 30 years due to playing too attacking also. It works both ways.

Anyway, I am for playing Alena and some new kids.
But also, I have nothing against subbing off Dembele or Arthur when we lead 2:0.

A bad coach is indeed capable of killing the overall confidence of a player.
I have rarely or never seen for instance Dembele being tired, but he is substituted each and every time, which is not a good sign for a player.
It only works if the substitutions are either based on valid or fortuitous tactical considerations OR based upon the actual performance of the given player.
(If for instance: if Suarez doesn't have a single appraisable touch during the entire game, but someone else - who played outstandingly - is substituted) the player's confidence is wounded, either knowingly or otherwise.

There are coaches who pay thorough attention to this, whereas other coaches (like EV) do not care for its restrain-effect. They will always suffer in the long run...

Well, imo, this part is more related to when a coach KNOWS that a certain out of form player is actually capable of doing world class magic.
For example, when Suarez is shit, EV will play lottery with him and hope that he will return to form, since when on form, Suarez is miles ahead of other options, like Malcom.

The same is with Pique.
Fans on this forum have burried Pique in the first part of a season, with posts: we should play xx (insert any random B team player). No one can be worse than Pique at this point.
But a few Months later, Pique is one the best CBs in the world again.
Imagine if we had benched him and killed his confidence.
Would we profit more from some kid from a B team or with waiting for Pique?

The same is with Suarez.
Would you rather wait for Suarez in key matches or gamble with Malcom, Munir and Prince?
I know my answer...

You'll now reply: but we don't know HOW GOOD Malcom is, since a coach is playing Suarez even when he sucks.
Well, again, EV sees them on training grounds.
And EV knows what in-form Suarez can offer and whether it is worth to wait on him.
And EV knows more than us what in-form Malcom can offer and a coach decided whether he will gamble with Suarez or Malcom.
If you get me, I understand EV's picks.

 

[Arizona Scott]

- If named as being offensive, and at the same time it represents the possible highest qualities of that, then there is no need to "calm down" and "keep the lead until the final whistle", because only those teams do that, who aren't strong enough offensively but "somehow" or luckily could excruciate or bait one or two goals, and then try to get hold on to that result. That is most definitely not the Barca mentality!
- That is the slogan of the weaker and luckier teams, Barca has enough offensive potential NOT to depend on that.
- If you want Barca to be more defensive, that's your (and Valverde's) problem. The moment it happens, Barca will fall to be a mediocre mid-table-rider...
...

Pep won CLs with playing all out attack all the time.
Yet, he had prime Messi, Xavi, Iniesta, Busi, Alves.
And even then, we couldn't win against Chelsea in 2009, Inter 2010, Chelsea 2012.

So, our all out attacking tactical approach wasn't THAT efficient even with our best coach and best generation ever.
Go back to 90s and 00s, before Pep, that approach from our team always resulted in naive 1/4s and 1/2s CL's exits.....

So, imo, NO. Attacking like crazy no matter what is NOT Barca's way.

.

Just thoughts from parts of ya'lls last posts. Personally I think Pep's two tremble teams not not at all recklessly attack. They had amazing defenders and control int he midfield. If you think of the two United finals (and the Real semis in 11), it wasn't attack, attack, attack. It was a patient and picking attack, defend when necc, and squeeze the life out of them through possession football. United was more less bossed start to finish.

Enrique's tremble squad IMO was more risk taking, even a bit reckless at times. Fullbacks at times caught too overaggressive (Jordi, Dani, Sergi can all be culpable at different moments). Even in the Juv final there was about a 10-15 minute spell in the 2nd half where they had a pretty good chance to steal the trophy. In other recent CL elimination ties we also saw recklessness and/or poor defending lead to atrocious results vs Juv (Enrique), PSG (Enrique), Roma (EV). Those outcomes were not primarily a result of a lack of aggression, but a lack of overall energy at that point in the season compounded by many basic footballing 101 defensive mistakes (that occur with having less than in form supreme defensive figures like inform Puyol, Pique, Busi) an inability to respond to another team who was sitting on a big match and punched us 1st. As an aside further we actually let Roma even having a prayer by falling asleep late so Roma stole a road goal--off hand what I remember is it was part Jordi and part where we should have just made safe passes and had Roma chasing us while we professionally run out the game, and instead we got greedy for still another goal and turned over possession too easily.

As far as the Chlesea, Atletico and Inter exits, sometimes against great defense and double parked buses bad results can happen in football even when you are the better team. You just have to smart, also be very defensively sound, and pick at them but not lead yourself exposed by being overaggressive. Still sometimes you can lose 1-0 or by away goal--that is the nature of football and a well oiled team set up this way. The most infuriating thing about one of the Atletico CL ties and the match the gave Atletico the league is we had leads but let them come back. We didn't squeeze the life of them like the Pep Barca teams would have done.

Wow, really off Alena here. How about this, no I don't think we have a future Ineista or Xavi in him where he is going to be supremely effective at keeping control, and is extraordinary disciplined except when it is just the right time to not be and take risks. I think he has more of the more likely to take risk and less discipline component. I honestly don't think his ceiling is like Coutinho (who is a risk taker but can things few other in world football can on his day) nor Arthur (seems super disciplined and at this point it is growing to identify the situations where he should be a little more risk/creative oriented)

 

[Potroh]

So, imo, NO. Attacking like crazy no matter what is NOT Barca's way.

I do most definitely agree here.
Not "attacking like crazy" should be the mild definition, but rather: attack-oriented. To simply put: having and following an attacking style...

An orientation hence depends on the quality and type of players available for any team.
- Does Barca have the best defense in Europe? No. The best in Laliga? Not at all. Barca despite of comfortably winning the Liga, has a slightly above average defense. Nothing more.
- Does Barca have the best midfield in Europe? No. It used to have probably the best, but that time is over. (Last year the midfield was the greatest problem for the team. Gomes, Dennis, Paulinho - my God...)
- Does Barca have the best attackers in Europe? Perhaps. Probably. When Neymar was here, definitely - regardless some bad international results.
The MSN scored 116 goals in the Liga, played a beautiful, skillful, entertaining and artful - attacking - football. The best I have seen in a decade...
Attacking football, that suits more the style they prefer and know. I cannot recall any game at the moment, when Barca tried to "sit on" the result, because an attaching team can hardly do that, they are not comfortable doing that, because they are not Atletico Madrid or older Juventus. That's a different entity and phenomenon in itself...

Barcas played all out attack no matter what (and those Barcas from 90s and 00s couldn't win CLs).

Probably you are right. I do not know, because 10-15 years ago I didn't follow Barca that often. My gravitation with Barca started with Ronaldinho and Messi, but at that time I worked as a coach in India and that time only short summaries were available there on TV. Couldn't watch more than 1-2 full games. So I can't judge your statement but I gladly believe it blindly.

So, I personally don't see anything wrong with closing down the game at 2:0 or 3:0 and slowing down.

Neither see I anything wrong with that. It's not "wrong". It's just dull, boring, anti-stylistic and dangerous.
The Roma game clearly showed that. Wanted to sit on the 4:1 and paid for that. One single goal (remember Iniesta's shot that missed by 5 cms?) would have saved the CL. The bad and wrong mentality could not...

Well, imo, this part is more related to when a coach KNOWS that a certain out of form player is actually capable of doing world class magic.
For example, when Suarez is shit, EV will play lottery with him and hope that he will return to form, since when on form, Suarez is miles ahead of other options, like Malcom.

Right, but that's a different matter, I was not talking about that.
If I were the coach, I'd also do the same with Suarez and Messi. With the exception that Suarez - at least sometimes - needs to be benched. Do you remember the hysteria he produced when he was substituted ones or twice? EV wants to avoid that, and also the gray face of Messi if his friend is not playing, so he plays it safe (for himself) once again.

Of course I agree that Suarez is way ahead of Malcom, frankly I consider Malcom to be a good-average winger, nothing else. Not my cup of tea... (even if you claim him to be a "Barca-DNA" talent.)
Therefore I would not gamble with either Malcom or Boateng, but sometimes I would call off Suarez (when he really plays bad) and place Dembele or Coutinho there.
That could be at least constructive experimentation, contrary to the well known and static tactical scenario.

BTW, a coach cannot always be "that certain" of a player's actual form, because there are footballers who play and perform well in training but almost always suck in sharp match-situations.
The opposite type is obviously also there, players, who don't stand out in training but at matches always impress.
The coach has to know his players from this aspect too.
(i.e: Umtiti is very good with his head, Lenglet is also okay, and probably they practice a lot of corners when one of them scores a lot of headers, which is not really happening in match-situations. Lenglet scored one single header and it was in a Copa game...)

A word on "form" that you've mentioned: A player is EITHER out of form OR he is in good form, which doesn't change during a single game.
A footballer's form is something that predicts linearly good or bad performance for some weeks, but form does NOT change in a single game. Disposition and luck does...
It's only the press that labels an attacker - scoring no goals in weeks - to be in "good form" if he finally scores and assists, but the coach with experience and brain knows that he is still far from his best form, regardless the momentary rise, luck and result.

Consider once again Suarez. How many times in the past 12 months he was able to dribble through three defenders? Not a single time! Very rarely one, but three??? Now he did that in two consequent games in a week. Does that mean he is again in "good form"? Not at all, mathematically speaking, even his clumsiest trick can also be successful - time to time. Is he in good form now? No, but he is in better form, considering the 10-12 games, when he was actually the obstacle in most rapid attacks.
(And please mind it that I love and adore him, consider him to be a true WC attacker and scorer, but that fact simply doesn't make me blind...)

You'll now reply: but we don't know HOW GOOD Malcom is, since a coach is playing Suarez even when he sucks.

See above. No, I would not answer that. I know how good Malcom is, as good as he is. He is not a Dembele, not a Sane, not a Jesus and not a Vinicius Jr. He would be great in a mid-table LaLiga team.
So I'm not in favor of either Malcom or Alena, unlike with Dembele, whom I consider to be a generational talent. Way better and more talented than MBappe is... Something close to the young Neymar, but I keep silent from here, knowing your Neymar-fobia...

 

[God Serena]

Ya'll got me fucked up, I'll come back to this thread later...