7 - Philippe Coutinho - V1

[khaled_a_d]

Maybe if we would see Coutinho partnered with someone like Vidal and just one of Rakitic or Busi in a midfield trio we'll have a bigger picture of what he can and can't do. But how are we supposed to find out if it can work, if Coutinho and Vidal never played together in a midfield three?

Ma be, let's try it isn't really a solution serghei, we have 23 players in the squad and there is ton of possibilities of trying things.
Midfield right now has 4 players that are really good despite their individual and collective shortcoming, in Vidal/Busquets/Raki/Arthur. with huge talent waiting in the line like Alena.
Trying someone over them should be really warranted considering we have little room for mistake, we don't have a comfortable Liga lead unfortunately to try things.

What we do know is that Coutinho doesn't have the pace and the goal scoring threat to play on the left wing for us. And yet, Valverde only plays him there for a while, because the only player he has the guts to sub is this boy Dembele.

Here is what we know:
1-Coutinho played most of his career as LW made a name of himself as world class player in that position.
2-He did that in EPL without having problem with pace. That is a key something to remember.
3-He is a decent -not great- goal scoring threat too, scored 22 goals last year which is the same as Hazard did in his best scoring year (in France) for example, he isn't the guy to score 30 goals per season but on his good year he should be able to get 20
4-Coutinho played great with us last year as LM and is some few cases RM, people were calling for Cou Messi Dembele attack at the end of the year
5-Right now, Coutinho sucks (based on his standards). Early on he scored and assisted but after injury it is getting worse.
6-He sucked playing both positions, AM and LW.
7-His best performances was probably with Messi out (or couple of games before it), when the whole team stepped up, he has more or less played LAM as he had the freedom to move wherever he wants and was more of an extra midfielder) supporting the midfield trio.
8-During that patch , we played our best games against toughest opponents in the year, Seville,Tottenham,Inter etc.

Seriously, khaled. These sort of things need work and someone who's a bit of a visionary, someone who has an idea about how to play and perfect a gameplan based on progressive possession. We'll never find those answers under someone as limited, as conservative, and as scared as Valverde.

this need Coutinho to step up and elevate his game. period
People loves to blame manager for everything. And if someone isn't working then suddenly people assume that any other solution is better.
But the whole "hypothesis" of Coutinho being better midfielder, or that he will make the team better has absolutely nothing to support it regardless the coach.
For him, it is his 2nd position not his his main one. for the team he proved it in Liverpool that their midfield was better without him. The intensity and compactness they found without him (and with players like Can/Chamberlain,Milner etc) has helped the team to be better.
This has nothing to do with the manager, it is pure desperation for Coutinho to succeed and find an excuse for his current form. Player not playing good? he should play in the other position, coach is idiot.

 

[Messigician]

A lot of crazy ideas in this topic without any numbers.
So, a Christmas gift, Mr. Con Man is back

Spoiler: Text

Let's check some stats in all matches where we played 433 or something close to a 433:
Valladolid 1:0, Cou, Busi, Raki
Huesca 8:2, Cou, Busi, Raki
Sociedad 2:1, Rafinha, Raki, Roberto
Psv 4:0, Cou, Busi, Raki
Leganes 1:2, Cou, Busi, Raki
Bilbao 1:1, Rakitic, Roberto, Vidal
Tottenham 4:2, Arthur, Busi, Raki
Valencia 1:1, Arthur, Busi, Raki
Sevilla 4:2, Arthur, Busi, Raki
Inter 2:0, Arthur, Busi, Raki
Real 5:1, Arthur, Busi, Raki
Rayo 3:2, Arthur, Busi, Raki
Inter 1:1, Arthur, Busi, Raki
Betis 3:4, Arthur, Busi, Raki
Psv 2:1, Raki, Busi, Vidal
Villareal 2:0, Raki, Busi, Vidal
Espanyol 4:0, Raki, Busi, Vidal
Levante 5:0, Raki, Busi, Vidal
Celta 2:0, Raki, Busi, Vidal

I haven't included matches:
Atletico, Alaves where we played 442.
Girona 2:2, an early red card for us.
Tottenham 1:1, a mixed lineup.

Now, let's check our players, some midfield trios and their statistical results, goals scored and goals conceded regarding Barca.

Rakitic, 19 matches:
Vall 1:0
Huesca 8:2
Sociedad 2:1
Psv 4:0
Leganes 1:2
Bilbao 1:1
Tott 4:2
Valencia 1:1
Sevilla 4:2
Inter 2:0
Real 5:1
Rayo 3:2
Inter 1:1
Betis 3:4
Psv 2:1
Vill 2:0
Esp 4:0
Lev 5:0
Celta 2:0
= 14w, 3, 2
= 55:20

Busquets, 17 matches:
Vall 1:0
Huesca 8:2
Psv 4:0
Leganes 1:2
Tott 4:2
Valencia 1:1
Sevilla 4:2
Inter 2:0
Real 5:1
Rayo 3:2
Inter 1:1
Betis 3:4
Psv 2:1
Vill 2:0
Esp 4:0
Lev 5:0
Celta 2:0
= 13 wins, 2, 2
= 52:18

Vidal, 6 matches:
Bilbao 1:1
Psv 2:1
Vill 2:0
Esp 4:0
Lev 5:0
Cel 2:0
= 5 wins, 1 draw, 0 defeats
= 16:2

Arthur, 8 matches:
Tott 4:2
Val 1:1
Sev 4:2
Inter 2:0
Real 5:1
Rayo 3:2
Inter 1:1
Betis 3:4
= 5, 2, 1
= 23:13

*********************************************************
Percentage of wins for Barca when a XX midfielder is a starter in 433:
83% Vidal
76% Busquets
74% Rakitic
63% Arthur

Goals scored per match by Barca when a XX midfielder is a starter in 433:
3,06 Busquets
2,89 Rakitic
2,88 Arthur
2,67 Vidal

Goals conceded per match by Barca when a XX midfielder is a starter in 433:
0,33 Vidal
1,05 Rakitic
1,06 Busquets
1,63 Arthur

***********************************************************
Now, let's check some midfield trios, and their stats:

Raki-Busi-Vidal, 5 matches:
Psv 2:1
Vill 2:0
Esp 4:0
Lev 5:0
Cel 2:0
= 5, 0, 0
= 15:1

Arthur-Raki-Busi, 8 matches:
Tott 4:2
Val 1:1
Sev 4:2
Int 2:0
Real 5:1
Rayo 3:2
Inter 1:1
Betis 3:4
= 5, 2, 1
= 23:13

Cou, Busi, Raki, 4 matches:
Vall 1:0
Hue 8:2
Psv 4:0
Leg 1:2
= 3, 0, 1
= 14:4

************************************************
Percentage of Barca's wins with a XX midfield trio:
100% Busi, Raki, Vidal
75% Cou, Busi, Raki
63% Arthur, Busi, Raki

Barca's goals per match with a XX midfield trio:
3,50 Cou-Raki-Busi
3,00 Raki-Busi-Vidal
2,88 Arthur-Busi-Raki

Barca's conceded goals per match:
0,20 Raki-Busi-Vidal
1,00 Cou-Raki-Busi
1,63 Arthur-Busi-Raki
*************************************************
Now, again, stats are in favor of Vidal-Raki-Busi trio.
Defensively, the weakest trio is the one when Arthur plays.

Let's take some additional stats from Whoscored to see official individual defensive stats of our midfielders:
La Liga, all matches:
Tackles:
2,5 Busquets
1,7 Vidal
0,8 Rakitic
0,5 Coutinho
0,5 Arthur

Interceptions:
2,1 Rakitic
1,5 Busquets
0,7 Vidal
0,5 Coutinho
0,3 Arthur

Clearances:
0,6 Rakitic
0,4 Vidal
0,3 Busquets
0,1 Coutinho
0,1 Arthur

Blocks:
0,2 Rakitic
0,2 Busquets
0,1 Vidal
0,0 Coutinho
0,0 Arthur
**************************************************

So, in every single defensive stat, Arthur is the weakest out of these 5.
And now, a lot of guys here, want to pair our defensively the weakest CM with the 2nd weakest (defensively) CM in Coutinho.

That would be: 2 very bad defenders in our midfield (Arthur and Coutinho), paired with Messi who is not defending and Dembele who is also quite a bad defender.
I know, that team would offer nice passes and creativity in attack.
But what happens when we would lose the ball?
= yes, 10s of deadly counters in each match with Busi being caught alone with numerous fast opponents running at him.

So, you guys are shitting on Valverde, but he is actually quite logical and he is playing a number's game.
Currently: Vidal-Busi-Raki is the strongest midfield trio with 100% of wins and conceding 0,20 goals per match.
Midfield trios with Arthur bring more control and TikiTaka passing but also 1,63 goals conceded per match.
While Coutinho-Arthur midfield duo paired with Messi and Dembele would probably break all records in terms of Barca's goals conceded per match.
Every match would end with 4:3, 3:3 and 3:4.

Good intelligent post. Need more of this stuff than the typical " Ernie Bad me not happy me want Coutinho Arthur midfield"

 

[Respekt_III]

You guys are such spoiled brats.

I think Real Madrid miss the luxury days of having James and Morata in the bench. Now they have Mariano and Vazquez.

Eriksen is not better than Cou, he wouldn't start for FCBarca, if he cant start for Spurs.

Eriksen would of been a better fit for what we needed at a substantially better price (even dealing with Levy) as he didn't have as long on his contract. Tottenham are a much better team with him that much is obvious.

Fucking hell , this is some amazing shit I am reading. So to get this straight : Coutinho leaving Liverpool and getting benched at Barca managed to make Barca as Liverpool alot better.

It made them better because it gave them money to strengthen their squad, It also added balance to their team.
Something we dont have with Suarez, Messi, Dembele and Coutinho on the field at the same time. All of them are better then him in front 3 positions so who does he replace? We need Dembele for his speed and ability (x factor) without him we are slow and predictable.

To add to that any time its a front 3 of Suarez, Messi, Coutinho the whole dynamic of the game changes. Against better opposition it will be a disadvantage having that front 3 on. We should really only be looking at replacing Dembele with Malcom as he has the pace and drive to run at defenders imo.

What do you think we signed him for? To be a sub at LW? He was signed to be Iniesta's replacement. We need to use him in that position to see if he can play there or not.

We did and so far it seems as though that was a mistake. He really needs to put in the effort to develop there but i just don't see him doing that. In short his decision making has been poor and hes been very selfish when playing.

Valverde isn't helping but the main issue is with Coutinho is himself. He's an 'experienced ready made' 26 year older player not a 20/21 year old... who should need his hand held.

If he can get his head down, learn the new position and develop his game then he will be an asset to this club, till then he is heading towards being a massive flop.

 

[serghei]

[MENTION=11668]khaled_a_d[/MENTION], both needs to happen. it's obvious Coutinho needs to step up his game. But it's also pretty obvious that he is also not helped by the system and the managerial style of Valverde. He needs to improve and Valverde needs to find him a place in the team without dropping Dembele. It's pretty simple. Dembele is one of our best talents and our most explosive player. He needs to figure out a way to play Coutinho while keeping Dembele on.

You seem to believe we should not play Coutinho in the LAM position, for which we basically signed him. Again, Coutinho was not signed to be a back-up LW. The point is not for Coutinho to play better so he can bench Dembele at LW. The point is to continue to use Dembele as a LW, and develop Coutinho for the LAM spot which he played for at the World Cup and did great many times before at Liverpool too.

I disagree Liverpool evolved because Coutinho left. Liverpool was always gonna evolve either way. They have been growing, step by step, ever since Klopp was signed because he is a great manager that always finds a way to best utilize his players and integrate them into a very cohesive plan. Basically the opposite of Valverde.

Basically, if we are playing 4-3-3, like we should be, and the front trio is Dembele, Messi, Suarez. Where should Coutinho play? Because it is automatically LAM. Do you want Coutinho and Dembele to compete for the same spot and bench the one that is slightly worse at that moment? Basically alternate between Coutinho at LW, and Dembele at LW based on form? The one that is playing less great than the other taking the bench? That is your solution? Forcing our most expensive signings on the same position?

Valverde is using both Coutinho and Dembele for the same spot basically. Both compete for the LW spot. Which is moronic. No team has 2 players of over 100m. competing for the same position.

Messi, Suarez, Busi, Rakitic, and now Vidal always play. The only change is sometimes Arthur instead of Vidal, lately as a sub. That's the main issue man, on top of Coutinho's form atm. This manager is not trying to find solutions and be creative, evectively trying to get the most of the great squad he has. All he knows is the same formula. Over and over again until the players became tired and lose intensity late in the season due to overplaying. Seen this pictrue before too you know...

Please, don't make it sound as if we can't play Coutinho in midfield because doing that wouldn't allow us to win games on Camp Nou vs some bottom team from La Liga. That's just not true, that's absolute rubbish. There are games which are cvasi-won when Coutinho enters as a sub. He could always enter for Rakitic as the game is in the bag, but Rakitic always plays, so of course he's pushed to the LW and poor Dembele is taken out despite being our most active forward by far.

 

[Donatello]

Although its best if he turns things around. But, I don't think its possible when Dembele and Coutinho are fighting for the same spot. Unless he moves to midfield, one of them will have to suffer.

If he doesn't work out, swap him + 100M for Mbappe.

Win win for everyone. Neymar gets his buddy, we get our Suarez/Messi replacement.

 

[serghei]

Although its best if he turns things around. But, I don't think its possible when Dembele and Coutinho are fighting for the same spot. Unless he moves to midfield, one of them will have to suffer.

If he doesn't work out, swap him + 100M for Mbappe.

Win win for everyone. Neymar gets his buddy, we get our Suarez/Messi replacement.

Doubt he will move to midfield under a conservative manager like Valverde. I guess one of Coutinho and Dembele will have to sit on the bench while the other is playing. At least until we get a different manager.

Still, Coutinho should do better once he gets in. He can still impact games even as a sub if he gets his shit straight. Under conservative managers who don't really do anything to help players fit in, said players need to show balls, top mentality and take things into their own hands, basically force the manager in charge to play them. Coutinho is disappointing at that, his mentality is questionable so far.

 

[khaled_a_d]

[MENTION=15262]serghei[/MENTION]
first of, I've no problem with Coutinho being subbed in for Raki instead f Dembele in situation like Celta game.

But I think you are ignoring few things
-I do want to see Coutinho as LAM for sure, but that position doesn't exist with LW,Coutinho/Dembele/Alba at the same time on the left side is absolute trash tactically to say it mildly, the team already rely on the left side a lot just due to the presence of Alba, the presence of both Coutinho & Dembele together gives us same product of one of them and may be even less.

-If he plays just as pure AM, he will again be occupying same space as Messi, as I said previously you rarely see AM playing beside second striker. Again Coutinho and Messi will be problem tactically. I am yet to see Coutinho to shift to the right or actually in the middle when he is at midfield, it always seem he will shift automatically to the left, same at Brazil.

-You ignore the state of our defense, which is simply shit right now. Our defense simply rely on our midfield status, midfield protect them our defense look decent, defense not protected it is shit. That is important to remember when you demand Suarez/Messi/Dembele/Coutinho all playing at sametime.

-Coutinho right now is one of 23 players in the squad, it should never matter to the coach (EV or our future prince charming coach) what we paid or what we signed him for,he should serve a beneficial role to help this team win games

-And you have to remember when he was signed, we were playing 442 and not 433. He excelled as LM which was Iniesta role. And right now I think it is the only viable game plan to incorporate all 4 although it basically fucks the rest of our midfield, we will basically have Vidal/Busquets/Raki/Arthur for 2 DM positions.
-But it doesn't seem EV is really interested in that game plan, and I think the reason for that is Dembele, EV s want him to play to his strength upfront, develop as goal scorer rather than focusing on his weaknesses by playing him as RM where he will have to track back more.
-And again, remember EV didn't want Paulinho to leave, he was the player that made 442 possible, and EV wanted Willian likely because Willian makes 442 viable option tactically which is -right now- the perfect game plan for Coutinho.

-But no one wants 442 really, the rest of midfield atm is better with extra midfielder and defense is more protected, Coutinho at his current form isn't worth changing the game plan for him

All that said, I think Coutinho will find his niche again and EV will give him playing time and sometime as starter too, right now almost every player fans argued he should start has got his fair share of games (Semedo/Vidal/Dembele/Arthur)
It will be up to Coutinho to prove he is worth finding a way to make him starter again, although I Believe we will always have to sacrifice one of the four

 

[Donatello]

Doubt he will move to midfield under a conservative manager like Valverde. I guess one of Coutinho and Dembele will have to sit on the bench while the other is playing. At least until we get a different manager.

Still, Coutinho should do better once he gets in. He can still impact games even as a sub if he gets his shit straight. Under conservative managers who don't really do anything to help players fit in, said players need to show balls, top mentality and take things into their own hands, basically force the manager in charge to play them. Coutinho is disappointing at that, his mentality is questionable so far.

I don't think either Coutinho or Dembele would be happy to sit on the bench. They want to and they should start most games because they are top players bought for world record sums. The only permanent solution is to either:

* Move Dembele to RW and Messi to CF, Coutinho at LW, Suarez being left out. [NOT GONNA HAPPEN]

* Move Coutinho to midfield. Dembele Messi Suarez as front 3. [ONLY VIABLE SOLUTION KEEPING EVERYONE HAPPY]


(You also need to think about Malcom, he also meeds to be played, at least he can get some playing time if Coutinho moves to midfield & he comes as Dembele sub.)

 

[MagIX]

It made them better because it gave them money to strengthen their squad, It also added balance to their team.
Something we dont have with Suarez, Messi, Dembele and Coutinho on the field at the same time.

Exactly

However, the discussion, from any angle you start, always gets to the same conclusion:

So, end of day, it always ends up with: the coach have to play somehow, in some kind of formation, with Dembele-Coutinho-Suarez-Messi (or Messi as false 9 without Suarez), play well and win, because it's obvious and very clear (and anyone who understands a little bit of soccer agrees) that it's possible and achievable.
If the coach can't do it (how is it possible with these players???), then we have to fire him and get a new coach. Repeat.

Of course I hope to be wrong and that we can play with these 4 players togheter, win and play in a magnificent way and amaze the entire world as did the magnificent Pep boys (the team that we always try to bring back to life)

 

[serghei]

[MENTION=11668]khaled_a_d[/MENTION], those points you made there are all true, and 75% the reason why Valverde is a bad fit for us. What he did in his year and a half is pure patchwork. Sacrificed our style of playing in order to hide tactical deficiencies in the team, that we all hoped would have been fixed by great management. What we got is a Mourinho like figure who simply made the team play more defensive in the hope we'd leak fewer goals. And even that is not working at the moment.

Instead of saying we can't play with an AM because we have this issue and this issue, and this issue, maybe we should start working on those issues so that we can use an AM like we've used plenty of times in the past under different managers.

Valverde is like the plummer you call to partially solve a leaking at some pipe with some tape and some glue. He won't do a durable job, but the leaking would be temporary stopped until it breaks again and you call someone who's a pro to replace it.

 

[khaled_a_d]

[MENTION=15262]serghei[/MENTION]
Pep himself failed to fix the position dilemma with Cesc & Ibra. Sometimes it simply doesn't work no matter the coach
And This will bring us to the old "chicken or egg" discussion about whether it is the coach or sport department.
The sport department has left this team with the least depth in defense since 04/05 season. EV wanted back up LB and CB and he didn't get them.
EV wanted someone to make 442 possible and they didn't give him that.

 

[BBZ8800]

I don't think either Coutinho or Dembele would be happy to sit on the bench. They want to and they should start most games because they are top players bought for world record sums. The only permanent solution is to either:

* Move Dembele to RW and Messi to CF, Coutinho at LW, Suarez being left out. [NOT GONNA HAPPEN]

To drop Suarez for Coutinho, Coutinho would need to offer more to our team than what Suarez is offering.
Suarez is offering way, way, way more currently.

* Move Coutinho to midfield. Dembele Messi Suarez as front 3. [ONLY VIABLE SOLUTION KEEPING EVERYONE HAPPY]

In a mind of an average Barca's forum member who is closest to Pep's football, that solution looks simple.
Let me guess:
Dembele-Suarez-Messi
Coutinho, and let me guess? Arthur in, Raki out, Busi in?
Or: Raki/Busi rotating as a DM.

So, basically, the "best" option for fans would be to play Coutinho-Arthur (2 weakest midfielders in terms of defending) paired with 3 attackers, again whom 2 don't defend at all: Messi and Dembele.
That is quite a lot of technical players who don't defend at all and who are good only in attacking phase of a game.
Sadly for those players and for fans of this lineup is: what will happen when we will lose the ball, especially against stronger teams or against any LA liga team who is attacking/making a transition with 5-6-7 players against our 5 players who are able to defend (4 defenders and Busi in this lineup)?

Also, not to mention, as Khaled said, if you move Cou to midfield, you are saying "fuck you" to other 4 midfielders who showed way more than him in terms of deserving a midfield spot: Busi, Raki, Vidal, Arthur.
4 guys who were better than him should fight for 2 places?
Interesting.

Even worse, if you are one of those who would like to see Cou-Arthur duo (as majority of Pepistas here), then you are saying "fuck you" to 3 players fighting for 1 spot: Vidal, Busi, Raki.
What is even worse than all of this, as I have posted in post yesterday, Busi-Raki-Vidal is our strongest midfield trio, producing the best results and allowing the lowest number of counters, shots and goals.
With a 100% percentage of wins till now.

But I know: they are not THE NICEST midfield trio, they aren't producing magic and Pep's type of football.

As I have posted yesterday, whenever Arthur plays as a starter, a team is conceding 1,63 goals per match on average.
Now, imagine a horror show in defense named Cou-Arthur where none of them is able to produce more than 0,5+0,5 interceptions/tackles per match, with 0,1 clearances and 0,0 blocks per match:
Tackles:
2,5 Busquets
1,7 Vidal
0,8 Rakitic
0,5 Coutinho
0,5 Arthur

Interceptions:
2,1 Rakitic
1,5 Busquets
0,7 Vidal
0,5 Coutinho
0,3 Arthur

Clearances:
0,6 Rakitic
0,4 Vidal
0,3 Busquets
0,1 Coutinho
0,1 Arthur

Blocks:
0,2 Rakitic
0,2 Busquets
0,1 Vidal
0,0 Coutinho
0,0 Arthur

Konan will probably reply: it works for Brasil.
Yes.
It works:
1. against South American teams who are known for tactical indiscipline
2. and where majority of an opponents are quite physically weak (Argentina, for example), so, Arthur&Coutinho pair isn't weak physically since all the opponents are of that physical size, paired with tactically "funky" teams, their weaker defense is not such a problem against South American opponents.

Even on a World cup, Brasil (as expected) didn't have any problems against physically lighter teams:
CostaRica 2:0
Mexico 2:0

While, when they faced more physical and tactical European teams, their magic disappeared quite fast:
Switzerland 1:1
Serbia 2:0
Belgium 1:2

This is Europe.
Opponents are on average way taller, stronger, faster, physical in general.
Teams are also way more tactical than in South America.

In SA a midfielder with 0,5 tackles and 0,5 interceptions per match is not a problem, it seems.
In Europe, it is a problem.

The main thing, IMO, which people here don't get is: they look at football ONLY in one way=in attacking way.
And for those people:
Coutinho could be the new Iniesta.
And Arthur could be the new Xavi.

But:
1. Xavi was BOTH awesome in creation and defense
2. Iniesta was BOTH awesome in creation and good in defense

I posted already numbers from this season from Arthur and Coutinho:
2,5 Busquets
1,7 Vidal
0,8 Rakitic
0,5 Coutinho
0,5 Arthur

Interceptions:
2,1 Rakitic
1,5 Busquets
0,7 Vidal
0,5 Coutinho
0,3 Arthur

Clearances:
0,6 Rakitic
0,4 Vidal
0,3 Busquets
0,1 Coutinho
0,1 Arthur

Blocks:
0,2 Rakitic
0,2 Busquets
0,1 Vidal
0,0 Coutinho
0,0 Arthur

Now, here are some numbers from Xavi and Iniesta on their prime:
La Liga 2009/10:
** I will now add Arthur's and Coutinho's stats from this season, compared with Xavi-Iniesta from 2009/10, so that people could realize THE DIFFERENCE between Xavi-Iniesta from 2009' and a new Xavi-Iniesta Arthur-Cou from 2018' and why it more or less CAN'T WORK:
Tackles:
1,5 Iniesta 2009'
1,2 Xavi 2009'
0,5 Coutinho 2018'
0,5 Arthur 2018'

Interceptions:
1,4 Xavi 2009'
1,2 Iniesta 2009'
0,5 Coutinho 2018'
0,3 Arthur 2018'

Not even mentioning facts that football evolved and is way physical than in Xavi-Iniesta days and midfielders need to defend even more today.
Or that already good defenders Xavi and Iniesta were surrounded by younger Messi and hardworker Pedro.
Tackles:
1,2 Pedro 2009'
1,0 Dembele 2018'

Interceptions:
1,2 Pedro 2009'
0,3 Dembele 2018'

And Messi:
Tackles:
0,9 Messi 2009'
0,3 Messi 2018'

Interceptions:
1,2 Messi 2009'
0,1 Messi 2018'

So, in short, a summary of my post:
1. Xavi&Iniesta were way better defenders than Arthur&Coutinho.
2. they were surrounded by more hardworking attackers, where Pedro and Messi from 2009/10 were defending way more and way better than Messi and Dembele from 2018.
3. on too of everything, football is even more physically (and defensively) demanding than in 2009'

So, once again, maybe a good old Ernie is not that dumb, but he is playing logically and a number's game:
Since Arthur, Coutinho, Dembele and Messi are all very bad defenders.

And majority of you would like to field those 4 plus Suarez TOGETHER on a field.
And if EV is not doing that (for a reason), people here will reply: this is not Barca! Sack EV! What an idiot! What a clueless manager!

According to numbers in this post, EV is far from clueless compared to fans on this forum.

 

[Jägermeister]

Still telling us how Dembele doesn‘t defend "at all" That is just not true.

 

[jamrock]

Thr coach should think about how much a player cost in his team? Yeah right.

Gthoh with that preachy crap.

He should be perfectly aware of the investment the club as made in the player/players and try to come up with a system that maximizes their strength and minimize the overall negative impact they have on the team. That's his job.

At least rotate the team probably Jesus that's not too Much of a ask.

 

[Messigician]

[MENTION=15262]serghei[/MENTION]
Pep himself failed to fix the position dilemma with Cesc & Ibra. Sometimes it simply doesn't work no matter the coach
And This will bring us to the old "chicken or egg" discussion about whether it is the coach or sport department.
The sport department has left this team with the least depth in defense since 04/05 season. EV wanted back up LB and CB and he didn't get them.
EV wanted someone to make 442 possible and they didn't give him that.

Actually everything was fine for Zlatan except Messi wanted to play centrally and Pep agreed. According to Zlatan himself Pep did indirectly solve the problem.

Ibrahimovic, who*scored 16 times in 23 starts under Guardiola, has now accused the Spaniard of excluding him from his plans after the Swede questioned*his tactics.

"The first six months were perfect, then the manager changed system, tactics and it didn't work for me," Ibrahimovic told Sky Sports Italy.*

"I went to talk to him. I'm here to talk, if you think it's for another reason then we can't talk.

"I said: 'I believe that you are sacrificing some players for one player, Messi'. He said: 'I don't think this is the case but I understand what you say. I will take care of it, no problem, I will solve everything'. I thought it would be OK.

"The following game I was on the bench. I don't say anything, I work.

"Second match bench again. I thought he solved it well and he was not talking to me or explaining. Third match bench. Then the fourth match comes and bench again.

"I think something is strange. From that moment he stopped talking to me, looking at me. I go into a room and he walks out of it. He was not a bad person, but the most immature I've had because a man solves his problems."

In his 2011 book*I Am Zlatan*, Ibrahimovic called Guardiola a 'spineless coward' following a row over Barcelona's Champions League semi-final defeat to Jose Mourinho's Inter Milan.

"Guardiola was staring at me and I lost it. I thought, 'there is my enemy, scratching his bald head!' I yelled: 'You haven't got any b***s!' and worse than that I added: 'You can go to hell!' I completely lost it, and you might have expected Guardiola to say a few words in response, but he's a spineless coward."