7 - Philippe Coutinho - V1
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Messigician
Senior Member
Why are Dembele and Vidal plus Arthur flourishing in the same system then it EV is the problem?
FCB1987
Banned
Gnidrologist
Senior Member
They aren't really flourishing. Arthur is back to the bench and Dembele has simply gained bit more confidence thanks to support from mates. There isn't any system to talk about.
FCBfan22
Senior Member
How much time did Ernie need to play them reguraly? How much time did he need to start playing Vidal more? How much time does he need to react and change something?
With his tempo, Suarez, Busi and Raki will be 40+ when he starts rotating them.
FC B
Senior Member
YodaMaster
Member
First thing: where did you get those statistics ? Whoscored doesn't exactly show me your numbers.
Tackles:
2,5 Busquets
1,7 Vidal
1,1 Rakitic
0,7 Arthur
0,7 Coutinho
Interceptions:
1,6 Rakitic
1,3 Busquets
1,0 Arthur
0,8 Vidal
0,5 Coutinho
Clearances:
0,6 Rakitic
0,4 Vidal
0,4 Busquets
0,2 Arthur
0,1 Coutinho
Blocks:
0,3 Rakitic
0,2 Busquets
0,1 Arthur
0,1 Vidal
0,0 Coutinho
And if you're so into statistics, why did you ignore the part "Dribbled past" ? Because it doesn't go well with your narratives ?
Dribbled past:
0,3 Arthur
0,6 Coutinho
0,8 Vidal
0,8 Rakitic
1,1 Busquets
But you know what ? Even the correct statistics don't mean shit. Vidal is by far the most defensively strong midfielder we have due to his hunger, energy and mobility. Busquets is by far the most tactically strong midfielder we have and that isn't even debatable. Rakitic isn't some great defensive player ANYMORE: he actually plays lower than any midfielder on the pitch (Busquets included), he's basically playing between Semedo and Piqué so his stats are horrible for a RDM/RCB. If you put Arthur this low on the pitch, he'll have same/better stats than Rakitic. We all know Coutinho isn't great at defending but the most hilarious one: you compare Coutinho's stats with those of of three 3 DM's and one CM ? Are you aware that he played 90% of time as LW ? What's next ? You gonna compare Dembélé's defensive stat's with those of Piqué and Lenglet ? Btw, Dembélé does defend, he helps Semedo in defensive scenarios.
And I like how you're over analyzing percentage of win for each midfield. Because of course we're always playing the same opponent right ? Didn't Arthur got into the starting 11 in the most rude and difficult period ? The one where we played all of our hardest opponents ? All we know for now is that a defensive minded coach's team looks better defensively with Vidal and SEMEDO, AGAINST SMALLER OPPONENTS. Busquets and Rakitic always start, we don't know how a midfield without them would look. It might be better without one of them, but we'll never know since Rakitic has that PSG pact with Fraudverde.
A guy like Arthur is the best CM we have at keeping the ball under pressure, he highers possession so with a guy like him we don't need to sit back as much as with an Rakitic-Vidal midfield.
Xavi and Iniesta (and Pedro) played in a team that almost always played in opponent's half, as soon as the team lost the ball, all 11 Barça players would still go ahead and put crazy pressure and get the ball back almost instantly. Do you guys remind Pep's famous 5-10 seconds pressure rule ? In Valverde's Barça, even when attacking in possession, everybody sits back except Alba, Vidal/Arthur, Suarez and Dembélé, while Messi drops in midfield because our midfield three is too defensive. In Valverde's Barça, when team gets dispossessed, everybody goes back and sit in/ around our own box. That's the difference. It's easier to get more tackles and interceptions in a high pressuring team. But in order to be a high pressuring team, you gotta have high press resistant midfielders which we don't have except Arthur. Coutinho might become one with the right management.
Even with Xavi and Iniesta, we would struggle the first 10-15 minutes of the match cause the fresh opponent would put high pressure (go watch Clasicos, 2011 Wembley final) but the opponent would quickly tire because Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets would break the pressure more and more easily as the times goes by.
Plus the most important part: Messi, Suarez, Coutinho and Dembélé don't defend you say ? Well what the fuck do we have a coach for ? It's his job to motivate his players and to make them work. Dembélé and Coutinho are young players, they were bought with Fraudverde's agreement, it's his job to make them work on their flaws. It's just common sense.
Btw, Brazil's midfield at WC had Casemiro and Paulinho in it. It doesn't get any more physical/workhorse than that. What the hell is your point ?
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Potroh
New member
His point is to see a team with the possible most mediocre players and to see a defensive Barca.
He has simply no idea about what creativity means in this game, so for him the less creative and skilled a player is, the better it becomes.
Same stands for EV, who is as mediocre as possible to be...
(I think besides other things Neymar had a good instinct to leave when this coach arrived, who favors anything but attractive offensive play.)
BBZ8800 probably included this many letter "B"s in his username because the happiest he would be to see a strongly and diligently defending B-team all the time...
Arizona Scott
New member
Not giving up goals is always the #1 objective in football. Champions, including the Barca ones, give up few. The truly epic teams give up few goals and create a lot of chances (Barca's best, Spain's best, France 1998 team), but you can also contend (Juv, Atletico, Chelsea) by giving up few goals and grinding out teams. If your leaky on defense it won't matter, you will be grinded out sooner or later.
Cule4life
The Culest
BBZ8800
Senior Member
Regarding stats, you are doing a mistake:
1. you are opening Arthur's page and you are just looking at his tackles over his whole career
Stats which I have posted are stats from Barca, La Liga 2018/19 season.
https://www.whoscored.com/Players/284114/Show/Arthur
1. Open Arthur
2. click History
3. then click defensive stats
4. then you will get Arthur:
0,5 tackles
0,3 interceptions in La liga this season, which is quite horrible for my taste.
About your post, I guess that I should just copy/paste some of my older posts.
Look, we disagree on majority of things and I could now wrote a book just in reply to your post and 1001 reasons why things which worked under Xavi and Iniesta can't work and why is it pointless to try to copy those days, with wastly inferior players.
One thing which you mentioned in the other topic also, your idea: how Arthur has a low number of tackles/interceptions ONLY because he is playing in advanced position for Barca.
And how, if he would play in Raki's position, he would have the same numbers.
Well, I'll say lol.
For me, Arthur is still slow and weakish defender with questionable forward passing ability.
Since you are comparing Xavi-Iniesta days with Arthur, look at this:
1. Arthur is playing in the most advanced position in Busi-Raki-Arthur trio, right? Fine
2. Iniesta played in the same, the most advanced position, in Busi-Xavi-Iniesta trio, right?
Iniesta from 2009/10 and 10/11 La liga stats (got to history and then defensive stats):
https://www.whoscored.com/Players/9486/History/Andrés-Iniesta
Tackles:
1,5 Iniesta 2010
1,5 Iniesta 2011
0,5 Arthur 2018
Interceptions:
1,5 Iniesta 2011
1,2 Iniesta 2010
0,3 Arthur 2018
So, you see, your theory is not matching stats.
Why did Iniesta had so good defensive stats in such an advanced position?
So, you see it, it is not ONLY about where you play, but how do you play in BOTH ways.
One more time, for guys who are trying to replicate Pep's system with current players, YOU ARE severly lacking BOTH in creative part of our game and in defense:
(Tackles and Interceptions per La Liga match 2009/10):
Messi: 0,9+1,2=average 1,05
Pedro: 1,2+1,2=average 1,2
Iniesta: 1,5+1,2=average 1,35
Xavi: 1,2+1,4=average 1,3
Ibra: 0,5+0,6=average 0,55
Busi: 2,5+2,9=average 2,7
2018:
Dembele 1,0+0,3=average 0,65
Arthur 0,5+0,3=average 0,4
Messi 0,3+0,1=average 0,2
Suarez 0,3+0,2=average 0,25
Cou 0,5+0,5=average 0,5
Busi 2,5+1,5=average 2,0
So, look at a team from 2010, and their average sum of tackles&interceptions per match:
Busi 2,70
Iniesta 1,35
Xavi 1,30
Pedro 1,20
Messi 1,05
Ibra 0,55
Today:
Busi 2,0
Dembele 0,65
Cou 0,50
Arthur 0,40
Suarez 0,25
Messi 0,20
Average for those 6 starters in 2010 is=1,36 tackles&interceptions per EACH of 6 midfielders&attackers.
Average for these 6 (Cou-Busi-Arthur midfield in 2018)=0,67 tackles&interceptions per match
So, our 6 most attacking players (3 midfielders and 3 attackers) were making TWICE as much tackles and interceptions in 2010 than current guys in 2018, if we look at the most desired: Cou-Busi-Arthur midfield for 2018.
So, for the end, the whole football is more physical and defensive demanding today, and yet, our players are 200% weaker in defense than back then.
When you add that this team is BOTH 200% weaker in defense and also weaker in attack than Xavi-Busi-Iniesta generation, plus how opponents how figured out that system: what exactly is the point in trying to copy that system again?
This is why I find crazy ideas when people say: Arthur could do this or that what Xavi/Iniesta was doing and Cou could do this or that.
With our current attackers, we will usually need 2 or 3 out of 3 guys out of Raki/Busi/Vidal and NOT guys like Arthur or Coutinho, especially not together.
Do I even need to add comments about those Puig-Arthur midfielders paired with Dembele-Suarez-Messi in attack? Please no.
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Alik
Moderator
Two things:
1. You compare Iniesta's stats form 2010/11 to Arthur's in 2018, to prove that Arthur is weak defensively. Your next point is contradictory, because it shows that the entire team on average had higher stats than right now. So clearly, the system has a huge impact. Pep's team was well-known for high-pressing, so individual players are not directly comparable.
2. You call Arthur slow and weakish. Is Rakitic fast and strong? Arthur might be slow (but so is Rakitic) and he is not weakish. Just because someone is short doesn't mean he is weak.
YodaMaster
Member
My bad. I was wrong and you're right. Thanks for the explanation.
Above all, it's about the system you play in. There are different ways of defending. As [MENTION=12859]Alik[/MENTION] and I said earlier, you're talking about Iniesta's statistics in the Pep team. You need to stop check statistics so much, statistics do lie. Sats say that Rakitic had his worst defensive contribution in the 2014/2015 season ! But if you wanna make this all about statistics... Xavi's and Iniesta's defensive stats dropped the exact second Pep left Barcelona, why in your opinion ? You can't say that european football evolved and completely changed in 2-3 months ! The truth is that Pep had crazily offensive style of playing, even without the ball. His Barça used to pressure the opponents in opponent's last 30 meters. I checked Busquets, Xavi and Iniesta's stats and it's actually impossible not to see that all of them had twice less interceptions as soon as Pep left. Xavi for example became complete shit at all defensive aspects. What happened when Pep left ? Our pressing got rubbish.
When Lucho came at Barça and brought back the pressing, Iniesta's defensive stats got better again.
Arthur plays the offensive role in a defensive team. I guarantee you that Arthur would have far superior defensive stats in Pep's Barça.
Just look at Iniesta's last year defensive stats, they are his worst ever. It was his only year under Valverde. Coincidence ? Don't think so.
You'll say Iniesta was past his prime, yeah but he was in better form last year than his last season under Lucho. And Iniesta might have been past his prime, but Arthur is very far from having reached his peak atm. The kid arrived from Brazil few months ago and shows huge potential in every aspect of the game. He'll get better. Normally he'll perform even better than he did in Brazil with time, so he'll have similar or better stats than those he had there.
These are Arthur's stats in the only complete league season he had with Gremio:
1,9 tackles
1,1 interceptions
1,1 clearances
0,7 dribbled past
0,1 blocks
Another thing, why do you utilize only Liga games stats ? Arthur started 7 Liga games and 4 UCL games. The game number difference isn't huge. And in UCL Arthur is twice better than Rakitic at tackling for example. Rakitic is far better at intercepting. But again all these things aren't meaningful. Valverde's Barça is a team that sits deep when the ball is lost. Rakitic is Valverde's most defense oriented midfielder. Tackling and intercepting is basically his only tasks. I already showed you Arthur's stats when he played in a double pivot.
Plus you completely ignore the dribbled past thing that shows how a player copes in a one on one situation.
Football is far more athletic and physically demanding today than it was 30 or 20 years ago. But you can't say it has completely changed since 2010-2011-2012. Pep's Barça would completely outplay every opponent today just like they did back in the times. Plus you're only taking things that suits your ideas into account. Footballers are better athletes because of the new technologies and training methods right. But those new technologies and new methods would have helped players like Xavi and Iniesta to be physically better prepared than they were during their times.
You have to remind that before Euro 2008, the popular midfielders were the likes of Essien, Lampard, Fletcher, Ballack, Van Bommel etc. At Barcelona, it was said that Xavi and Iniesta can't play together, that it will never work, the exact same stuff you're saying right now actually. Then Aragones and Pep tried it the right way, and it became the best midfield duo in history. Then they added another frele dude in Busquets to complete the GOAT midfield trio. And the trend became these kind of midfielders.
All that being said, I never claimed Coutinho is ready to play in midfield with Arthur. Coutinho is indeed weak in defensive aspects. I was actually against his buy cause I knew that he wouldn't fit easily. What I said was that it's up to the coach and the club to make our players develop and to sharp them, especially when they're young. Coutinho doesn't have to be a defensively weak player for the rest of his career, a world class coach sharpens his players and make them progress.
That's our main problem: we don't have a world class coach but a coward who doesn't even thought once about trying an Arthur-Coutinho mid.
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Messigician
Senior Member
Like no spluh we are not trying coutinho arthur midfield lmao. What an awful pair that would be.
Respekt_III
Anti-everything
Could very much work with higher work rate wingers/attackers. But it would be retarded dropping Messi/dembele so we could fit those two in midfield....
I don't see an effective system of playing them altogether either against the bigger teams, might get away with it against the smaller teams though.
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