7 - Philippe Coutinho - V1

[FCBarca]

He is wearing Arda's #7 shirt. I'm a big fan of that number but in Barcelona it is cursed. Cou needs to take back that #14.

But seriously, I fail to draw a conclusion to what happened with Cou this season.

Cursed for some (Arda, Saviola, Figo) but not others like Guaje & Pedrito

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[Raketa10]

Disagree that "none could have predicted" this. I pretty much did back in May 2017. Obviously I am not going to lie and say that I expected SUCH a pathetic performance but I certainly did not accept him to succeed.

Problem is that he does not really fit either system (4-3-3 or 4-4-2) that Valverde has been using. His best fit would be in a system much like the one Tite used at the World Cup where he was flanked/secured by two hard-working DM/CM's in Fernandinho and Paulinho.

I could only see him work in a 4-3-3 if he plays in a similar position (Iniesta's position but more closer to the middle of the pitch than closer to the left wing) behind Busquets and De Jong. He would need at least 1 mobile midfielder (De Jong) to cover him. The Busquets and Rakitic midfield with Coutinho in front of them was not trusted by Valverde the few times it was actually tried.

The problems with him (individually) are just too many nowadays and that is notwithstanding the dilemmas that Messi's and in particular Dembélé's presence causes for him.

Honestly, if we received a great offer from an EPL club or QSG we should take it and run away. No need to get the wound infected if you can treat it.

A misfit from the very beginning, I am afraid.

Look we can argue if he fits or not but even if he doesn't fit there is no way anyone can explain why is he so horrible and as you said yourself nobody expected such a horrible performance. Fabregas was also a misfit but he wasn't so horrible, not even close. Something has gone terrible wrong and for sure problem is bigger than just his playing position or our formation. If that was the man issue he wouldn't have performed well in his first 6 months here despite the fact that we used 4-4-2 last season.

 

[Leo_Messi]

Look we can argue if he fits or not but even if he doesn't fit there is no way anyone can explain why is he so horrible and as you said yourself nobody expected such a horrible performance. Fabregas was also a misfit but he wasn't so horrible, not even close. Something has gone terrible wrong and for sure problem is bigger than just his playing position or our formation. If that was the man issue he wouldn't have performed well in his first 6 months here despite the fact that we used 4-4-2 last season.

That is another discussion and although I always firmly believed that he would be a misfit and was not surprised at seeing him fail this season I did indeed not expect him to be a light Denis Suárez at times. With all due respect to the Galician.

Ironically I was very much against the Cesc purchase as well and lamented it at the time. However indeed, he was never this bad.

Anyway what is your solution (realistic and having in mind that Valverde is likely not going nowhere which means that he will not play in the midfield in either a 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, on the later only on the "wing" where his pace will be exposed)? Because as things stand now I can't really see him bouncing back magically next season and somehow justifying the insane transfer that we paid for him.

BTW, to make it perfectly clear, I have absolutely nothing, zero, against Coutinho the person or even player. Wished him all the best like I do with every footballer that puts our jersey over their head. 100%. However sometimes you just need to take the small loss and start from a fresh and find another solution. No harm in that. It happens regularly at all elite clubs. Coutinho might prove his potential and turn into a world beater at another club, in other circumstances, with other players around him, another system and another manager around.

 

[Raketa10]

That is another discussion and although I always firmly believed that he would be a misfit and was not surprised at seeing him fail this season I did indeed not expect him to be a light Denis Suárez at times. With all due respect to the Galician.

Ironically I was very much against the Cesc purchase as well and lamented it at the time. However indeed, we was never this bad.

Anyway what is your solution (realistic and having in mind that Valverde is likely not going nowhere which means that he will not play in the midfield in either a 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, on the later only on the "wing" where his pace will be exposed)? Because as things stand now I can't really see him bouncing back magically next season and somehow justifying the insane transfer that we paid for him.

BTW, to make it perfectly clear, I have absolutely nothing, zero, against Coutinho the person or even player. Wished him all the best like I do with every footballer that puts our jersey over their head. 100%. However sometimes you just need to take the small loss and start from a fresh and find another solution. No harm in that. It happens regularly at all elite clubs. Coutinho might prove his potential and turn into a world beater at another club, in other circumstances, with other players around him, another system and another manager around.

To be fair I honestly don't know what to do. If Valverde intend's to use him only as a LW than I don't see him succeeding here. On the other hand Cou is still a very young player (26y) so if there is any chance we'll change a manager and (or) a playing system soon I would keep him. The thing that I can't understand is why is it such a problem for Valverde to try him out in Iniesta's role against some weaker teams?!?! If he can perform there he would be a GREAT addition to De Jong, Arthur and Busi since all 3 of them are either CM or DM players.

 

[Leo_Messi]

To be fair I honestly don't know what to do. If Valverde intend's to use him only as a LW than I don't see him succeeding here. On the other hand Cou is still a very young player (26y) so if there is any chance we'll change a manager and (or) a playing system soon I would keep him. The thing that I can't understand is why is such a problem for Valverde to try him out in Iniesta's role against some weaker teams?!?!

Well, if you remember I was very vocal (when I returned after my long break, forgot all about this forum and another Spanish forum called blaugranas disappeared, now resurfacing again but with most of the old members missing, this late spring/early winter) in not understanding that Valverde had only played Coutinho in the midfield in a 4-3-3 (most advanced midfielder, basically in Iniesta's position give and take) for more than 270 minutes (I think it was the number that I researched myself too). Ever since those complains of mine, that has not changed for the better. Much like I have been quite vocal in not understanding Valverde's treatment of Malcom in particular post that (arguably) MoM performance against RM in the CdR semifinal leg at the Camp Nou.

Coutinho will turn 27 this June so he is not exactly a youngster anymore. He is supposed to be in his prime right now. The longer he fails this spectacularly (it is a vicious circle) the more value he will lose and the more harm he will do for our team at the expanse of other players that deserve his playing time.

I am rescinded to him not succeeding as long as Valverde is here and as long as the other dilemmas are there and as long as he plays as he is playing. Hard for me to be very positive when I was against us buying him in the first place as I believed that he would be a misfit. After such a pathetic season (so far) it makes it even harder for me to argue his case.

With Arthur's emergence and De Jong being a much, much better fit (most likely, hopefully I am not going to jinx this now) I struggle to see his place in the midfield. If Rakitic stays we will have an even more stacked midfield. So the only option for him will be that "left wing" position in a 4-3-3 where his pace is being exposed and where he takes minutes away from a much, much better and more talented Dembélé as obviously Messi and Suárez won't lose the "battle" against Coutinho for playing time or in our current "system" or what is left of it.

 

[Sorin]

Ibra wasn t a flop signing. He could have been with us for a long time if not for Pep.

At that moment in time nobody knew Coutinho would have such problems. Most of us approved his signing (while insanely expensive), because we thought he would revitalise our midfield. Can t blame anybody.
I question Valverde s ability to adapt his tactic to players abilities. Coutinho on the bench is not an option. Either Valverde finds the way to use him as a starter or he should be sold.

Yeah, but spending tenths of million plus Eto'o for player that didn't fit the system was a mistake. Whether you like it or not he was a flop for our system, proved the season after when Messi in the middle and Villa on the left produced our best ever team. Maybe I'm misunderstanding but you make it seem like Pep was at fault for Ibrahimovic not succeding at Barcelona.

Coutinho can't evolve into an Iniesta or KdB(position not quality) with Valverde as a coach. Whether you are willing to believe that that is or is not his fault, in the end he doesn't fit the Valverde system(or lack of it) so we should look to sell him in the summer as Valverde has signed an extension. So, barring another humiliation in the CL, we'll have a 160m player as a bench warmer for next season. Hell, every minute he stinks up the place is a lack of opportunity for another player more suited to our team.

 

[Raketa10]

Well, if you remember I was very vocal (when I returned after my long break, forgot all about this forum and another Spanish forum called blaugranas disappeared, now resurfacing again but with most of the old members missing, this late spring/early winter) in not understanding that Valverde had only played Coutinho in the midfield in a 4-3-3 (most advanced midfielder, basically in Iniesta's position give and take) for more than 270 minutes (I think it was the number that I researched myself too). Ever since those complains of mine, that has not changed for the better. Much like I have been quite vocal in not understanding Valverde's treatment of Malcom in particular post that (arguably) MoM performance against RM in the CdR semifinal leg at the Camp Nou.

Coutinho will turn 27 this June so he is not exactly a youngster anymore. He is supposed to be in his prime right now. The longer he fails this spectacularly (it is a vicious circle) the more value he will lose and the more harm he will do for our team at the expanse of other players that deserve his playing time.

I am rescinded to him not succeeding as long as Valverde is here and as long as the other dilemmas are there and as long as he plays as he is playing. Hard for me to be very positive when I was against us buying him in the first place as I believed that he would be a misfit. After such a pathetic season (so far) it makes it even harder for me to argue his case.

With Arthur's emergence and De Jong being a much, much better fit (most likely, hopefully I am not going to jinx this now) I struggle to see his place in the midfield. If Rakitic stays we will have an even more stacked midfield. So the only option for him will be that "left wing" position in a 4-3-3 where his pace is being exposed and where he takes minutes away from a much, much better and more talented Dembélé as obviously Messi and Suárez won't lose the "battle" against Coutinho for playing time or in our current "system" or what is left of it.

Yeah you made some valid arguments there. Guess will see what happens in the reminder of the season. What irritates me the most is how Valverde easily discards some of our VERY expensive signings. He basically sees only one playing position for everyone and if that doesn't work fuck it, that player goes to bench or stands. He doesn't even try to incorporate players who have some difficulties adapting not to mention he won't ever try them out in some different position. Coutinho played as a LW, RW, LM, AM during his career and yet in Valverdes eyes he is only capable of playing LW?!?! Next game against Rayo would be a perfect opportunity to test him in midfield but that won't happen for sure since Valverde knows only one way and that way is ugly as it gets. Against Sevilla we played great second half in 4-2-3-1 formation and I bet he won't try it again so soon, maybe only in the case of emergency like we had in that game.

 

[Laplacian]

To be fair no one could have predicted this. Let's not write him off yet. There is still time for him but what worries me is the fact that Valverde sees him only as a LW.

Because everytime Valverde used Coutinho as a midfielder Coutinho played as a forward instead...? Seriously can we end this experiment already and buy a true creative midfielder already.

 

[Raketa10]

Because everytime Valverde used Coutinho as a midfielder Coutinho played as a forward instead...? Seriously can we end this experiment already and buy a true creative midfielder already.

Sorry what? Can you elaborate this? Can you name the game where he was used as a midfielder and yet he played as a forward?

 

[Judoman]

Yeah, but spending tenths of million plus Eto'o for player that didn't fit the system was a mistake. Whether you like it or not he was a flop for our system, proved the season after when Messi in the middle and Villa on the left produced our best ever team. Maybe I'm misunderstanding but you make it seem like Pep was at fault for Ibrahimovic not succeding at Barcelona.

Coutinho can't evolve into an Iniesta or KdB(position not quality) with Valverde as a coach. Whether you are willing to believe that that is or is not his fault, in the end he doesn't fit the Valverde system(or lack of it) so we should look to sell him in the summer as Valverde has signed an extension. So, barring another humiliation in the CL, we'll have a 160m player as a bench warmer for next season. Hell, every minute he stinks up the place is a lack of opportunity for another player more suited to our team.

As far as i remember (i may be wrong) Ibra started season with app. 15 goals before new year, playing his natural position and we were cruising through all competitions. After that Messi was moved to the middle and he was benched and after that gone. I don t think Messi played striker before Ibra was in Barca and i don t think that happened, because Ibra didn t fit the system. If he was a bad match he shouldn t have been bought in the first place. I don t think it was Ibra s fault, he never was a wing forward.

Unfortunately i agree with the second part. Either Coutinho is sold or Valverde is gone. I have little faith in both coexisting and prospering.

 

[Laplacian]

Sorry what? Can you elaborate this? Can you name the game where he was used as a midfielder and yet he played as a forward?

Every. Single. Game. Ignoring passing lanes and driving the ball forward instead so he can get in a position to shoot, or ignoring the tempo of our passing so he can try cute dribbles. His defensive contribution is shit. He doesn't behave like a midfielder at all, so why should Valverde use him there?

 

[Maxim4]

Every. Single. Game. Ignoring passing lanes and driving the ball forward instead so he can get in a position to shoot, or ignoring the tempo of our passing so he can try cute dribbles. His defensive contribution is shit. He doesn't behave like a midfielder at all, so why should Valverde use him there?

Valverde plays the players out of position except the leaders of the team.
yesterday, it was the same with Jean-Clair Todibo who did not even play where he should be.

 

[Leo_Messi]

Yeah you made some valid arguments there. Guess will see what happens in the reminder of the season. What irritates me the most is how Valverde easily discards some of our VERY expensive signings. He basically sees only one playing position for everyone and if that doesn't work fuck it, that player goes to bench or stands. He doesn't even try to incorporate players who have some difficulties adapting not to mention he won't ever try them out in some different position. Coutinho played as a LW, RW, LM, AM during his career and yet in Valverdes eyes he is only capable of playing LW?!?! Next game against Rayo would be a perfect opportunity to test him in midfield but that won't happen for sure since Valverde knows only one way and that way is ugly as it gets. Against Sevilla we played great second half in 4-2-3-1 formation and I bet he won't try it again so soon, maybe only in the case of emergency like we had in that game.

Yes, Valverde is simply not adventurous enough to play Coutinho in the midfield. Frankly, as other users mentioned above and as I have been mentioning far too many times, he is simply not the right fit in the midfield either. Nowhere near worth the absurd transfer fee that we paid for him or using him continuously over the likes of Arthur, De Jong, Aleñá etc. To be honest with you the few times that Aleñá has played he has impressed me more. Much more suited to our footballing philosophy.

Also have in mind that Valverde adjusted his tactics and lineup from the spring/early winter when we were conceding goals left and right. In the last 13 league games we have conceded 4 or 6 times only if I remember correctly.

A 4-2-3-1 formation would probably suit him the best by far and I might see him work in that formation if playing in front of guys like Busquets and De Jong or Arthur. Or Rakitic. A midfield of Rakitic (at his best) and de Jong (more mobile than Busquets), I could see work in that 4-2-3-1 formation with Coutinho right in front of those two. The problem is that Messi is not really a "right winger" anymore and constantly operates centrally. Ironically the position where Coutinho is arguably at his best when playing in such a formation. If played on the wing in a 4-3-3, Dembélé has to be sacrificed and our attack with Coutinho, a 32 year old Suárez and soon to be 32 year old Messi will have almost zero pace. It's not working much like that horrible Busquets, Vidal and Rakitic midfield imo.

However it all gets back to my initial points and the conclusion of him being a misfit, I am afraid, as obviously I would have liked to be proven wrong as that would have meant that we would have enjoyed a world class talent succeeding for us and being worth the money that we paid for him.

 

[jairzinho]

He's pretty much in the same category as Isco and James. Struggling to find an identity within the system and then becoming crestfallen and isolated. Will be interesting to see how Tite accommodates him along with Arthur and Vinicius.

 

[Saladin]

He's pretty much in the same category as Isco and James. Struggling to find an identity within the system and then becoming crestfallen and isolated. Will be interesting to see how Tite accommodates him along with Arthur and Vinicius.

Agreed. However great a player he was in Liverpool, it might just be one of the biggest mirages of modern football; Coutinho MUST be great, look at what he did in Liverpool? The biggest issue is that his good displays in the PRL were based on a different setup that would probably allow a better Coutinho to unfold, but would at the same time cripple our build-up play. Coutinho is a legend on a 12 minute YouTube compilation and had sporadically great moments for the NT and Liverpool, but he has never exhibited the WC level that his talents made us all believe he has the potential to reach. He has a great technique, a great shot and some decent passing abilities. All great qualities, but these qualities cannot stand alone in a team like Barcelona. A great shot is trivial if the opposition anticipates your shot every single time you take aim - good passing abilities is only average in a club like Barca, were exceptionally skilled passers come out of La Masia on a daily basis.

His technique means shit when you have zero pace, zero defensive output and the physique of a 12 year old girl. Impossible to impose any threat whatsoever. He had SOME pace at Liverpool, especially with the ball at his feet. Now, he stops almost every ball to take seven touches and pass it out wide. I really like Coutinho and had VERY high hopes for him here, but we need to cut our losses on this guy and acknowledge that not every good player can be a great Barca player.


Now is the time to go all in for a guy like Mbappé. Lobbying, using our PR team, our agents and our French players too reach out to him. Go all in on Mbappé and secure our offense for the next 10+ years.