8 - Pedri

BusiTheKing

Senior Member
It's not just vision tho is it.

It's the ability to do something that puts you in a position where a through ball is possible. Not like you're just cruising through killer pass opportunities with modern defenses. It takes some sort of destabilizing action to open them up.
 

Bobo32

Senior Member
It's not just vision tho is it.

It's the ability to do something that puts you in a position where a through ball is possible. Not like you're just cruising through killer pass opportunities with modern defenses. It takes some sort of destabilizing action to open them up.

Yeah it's multiple things.
His sense of positioning and off the ball movement has been praised very much by some, I was always questioning this.
He has some sense of timing to make himself free behind the press sometimes, but it's (like his passing) mostly when the opportunity presents itself out of chance rather than him being at the right place all the time.
 

BusiTheKing

Senior Member
A thing, however, that has to be mentioned in Pedri's defense when talking about his lack of offensive contribution is how alltogether weird, illogical and inconsistent our attacking movement is. An offensive midfielder in a different team will have two wingers on each side storming forward and a striker making runs behind the line. It's the assuarance of having these options that make it attractive for an attacking mid to break through because they know they will have someone to play to. In our team, it's not at all uncommon that a midfielder can break through only to find that he doesn't have a single attacker making the run with him.

Having Messi and Griezmann roam around in these ambiguous positions makes for a passive style of momentum. It's clearly what's fucking Dembele up as well, this ambiguity. In Dortmund he knew that Auba was going to there pouncing on the trouble Dembele would cause with his dribbling. Playing for us right now, there's always this doubt, knowing that even though he might break through three players, it might be for nothing because no-one is there to take advantage of it.
 

BusiTheKing

Senior Member
Would definitely be interesting to see a fresh-legged Pedri in a team like current Chelsea, with rapid players on each side storming forward.
 

serghei

Senior Member
A thing, however, that has to be mentioned in Pedri's defense when talking about his lack of offensive contribution is how alltogether weird, illogical and inconsistent our attacking movement is. An offensive midfielder in a different team will have two wingers on each side storming forward and a striker making runs behind the line. It's the assuarance of having these options that make it attractive for an attacking mid to break through because they know they will have someone to play to. In our team, it's not at all uncommon that a midfielder can break through only to find that he doesn't have a single attacker making the run with him.

Having Messi and Griezmann roam around in these ambiguous positions makes for a passive style of momentum. It's clearly what's fucking Dembele up as well, this ambiguity. In Dortmund he knew that Auba was going to there pouncing on the trouble Dembele would cause with his dribbling. Playing for us right now, there's always this doubt, knowing that even though he might break through three players, it might be for nothing because no-one is there to take advantage of it.

True. We lack supportive off-the-ball approach movements for the player on the ball in every position almost. Too often the ball carrier is left hanging to the point that a solo action or a back/safety pass are the only solutions on the table. It's down to both players and the manager imo.
 

serghei

Senior Member
Tactical analysis of an action made from a long build-up of around 50 seconds.

barca1.jpg


Photo 1. Pedri has the ball. No approaching moves from Busi, Griezmann, and De Jong, who are hiding behind markers. Griezmann is facing away. De Jong already starts to translate to the other flank knowing what is gonna happen.

The idea of play here illustrates Koeman's basic tactics very well. The team does very little to attempt to play in crowded spaces. Especially in the nearby sectors to where the ball is at a given time. Usually, we simply direct the ball to the players left standing in space by the opponent. This is probably intended. This is also the way an opponent expects to be attacked (hence why those players are left free).
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barca2.jpg


Photo 2. The ball has reached the other flank on the trajectory Pedri -> Pique -> Araujo. Now Araujo is on the ball. It's basically Photo 1 mirrored with the players from the other flank. The defensive setup of Levante is also mirrored of course.

Again, not a single approaching move from the midfielders to get rid of their markers and provide a pass option near the ball carrier. Btw, we're talking about some D-level defenders from a bottom team made in La Liga, considering that the players marking out our midfielders are the AMs and strikers from Levante, so attacking players from a bottom league team. The defenders are guarding the likes of Dembele, Griezmann, and Messi.

Busquets can move a bit to his right and receive, but he's either unaware of this or doesn't think Araujo will pass it to him. This could be true, Araujo is not very comfy on the ball, so even if Busi moves a bit here, Araujo probably doesn't pass to him surrounded by 2 (even if loosely). A big reason why ball-playing abilities are important for defenders these days. Not only at Barca but in most big teams.
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barca3.jpg


Photo 3. This is another change of direction. Mind you these are slow types, going through 2-3 defenders, so Levante has plenty of time to set up and make the transition from one side to another.

Note the position of Pique. What Pique does here is simple to explain. So, he can go up and stand in a more advanced position, Levante's positioning is not blocking this, but even invites it. But is too afraid that if he does that, he will be beaten for pace if a counter happens. So he kind of takes about 20-30m. of extra space as a precaution, standing way back compared to his fellow defenders in the back 3.

The situation is very similar to photo 1. Little to no moves from corresponding midfielders (Pedri - Busi, or De Jong - Busi on the opposite flank) to get in possession. This is the main type of build-up pattern. From defender to midfielders, and it is missing in the whole build-up. This is against Levante, not some high-level team where you can say, their defense is too good or too tight, you just can't play where you want to play. No. Here we can't play where we want to play because we don't even plan to, or do something about it. We just take the passing paths that Levante offers willingly until they make an error.
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barca4.jpg


Photo 4. We'll go through faster on this one. It's the same thing, Pique to open wide man, Dembele. You can say that, in this type of build-up, trying all the time to bypass the more crowded areas, the opponent can only be unbalanced by personal executions, amazing passes, or major individual mistakes from their defenders. Sometimes you need all 3 in a single action to collide and give you a chance. Like we will see here.

Here, Dembele being a dangerous 1 vs 1 player draws not just one opponent as a slow player would, but 2 (once again shows much much speed counts these days since Dembele's only real elite quality is his speed). The wide defender, but also the wide attacker that was guarding De Jong.

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barca5.jpg


Photo 5. This is an individual run from De Jong, combined with one of the rare great passes that Dembele pulls of in a match. But even with that rarity happening, Levante still has control and numbers. Everyone is accounted for, some are even double-marked. De Jong has a bit of space, but not much, Griezmann is marked well, Pedri is also between two players. It's basically a 6 vs 4 for Levante.

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barca6.jpg


Photo 6. The Levante player fucks up even though he has the position, getting outmuscled by De Jong, then somehow, 4 Levante players can't mark 2 threats near them. One is watching, the other 3 somehow go for the same player. And we have a chance.


Conclusions:

The approach is lacking big time in terms of passing options that present near the player with the ball, and Koeman's snubbing of Puig makes me think seriously that this is tactical. The approach seems to be that, once a midfielder is covered, then the thing to do is to pass to the open man, even if that open man is not in a good position (open men usually come with a positional disadvantage).

The team relies, just as with Valverde, almost exclusively on some offensive player destabilizing a well-set defense shape with some personal executions. This works only when you have absurd talent up front, who can work 10 actions of this kind and improve over half, using his skill on the ball. Dembele touches 10 actions like this, makes something great out of 1 (maybe 2 if lucky), trips himself in 2, gives a bad pass in 2, is dispossessed in 3, and gives a safety pass in another 2.

Any side that positions decently in defense can dictate how we will play, making us predictable. You don't have to do much as an opposing manager than just instruct your players to stand around our midfielders and we are already tentative to pass to them. Most often, the players won't do anything to move out of marking (except Puig who is quick, never hides from the ball, and moves non-stop). Players will stick to their positions a huge amount of time (even if marked out by doing so), and the ball will follow the free players the opponent leaves.

Only when the ball is in the possession of either Messi, or the wide players (especially wingers), do midfielders make runs usually. Meaning Koeman sees the CMs as more attacking outlets than players that create plays or dictate the game and where the pass goes. This is another reason why Puig is snubbed. He is a player that helps the midfield to dominate and find a way out of crowded zones, creating superiority and passing lanes inside those areas.

The lack of speed of some players is tactically evident in many moments because the slow player will not allow himself to take riskier available positions. The reason is to protect his lack of speed. Pique's situation is a great example. He can take better, a more potent position and help our build-up by giving it more speed, but he doesn't do it because such a position would demand the use of his speed in case there is a counter.
 
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Bobo32

Senior Member
I can't spend all my life on this site lol, and won't give a lot of time to analyse your analysis in detail this time.
But I think I agree on your main points about the play. I'll give a couple of thoughts

Pic 2:
Araujo is already to release the ball in the pic. Had he feinted, and looked for Busquets, he would be free and aware I am sure.
Araujo is an alibi player with the ball, he releases too quick and with too little thought (a bit same with Pedri I think)
An essential thing in Busquets position is not to kill the space before the ball can get there and to be cool not to break the angles too much, or hide passing lanes behind him.
Busquets is probably the greatest of all time in this, that's his main strength, knowing when to take one step and in what direction.
I agree the best play probably would be to play in the way you painted. It starts with Araujo looking up and forward, as he is unpressed.

Pic 3:
Is Pique out of the picture, deeper?
I have nothing to say about that, he creates max angle to rebuild through him, increases his space and time, and thus the time for the next player to get free.
He can run forward if he sees an immediate option, for example Messi completely free in the half space, but then Lenglet need to be ready as well

This picture looks very encouraging though, Griezmann, Pedri and Alba are in good positions to try something on that flank.
If it was De Jong instead of Lenglet, he would advance towards the defender circled together with Pedri, and either release Alba or find an even better pass towards Busi, Messi, Pedri or even Griezmann.
But a quick pass to Alba would be good there as well, I think.
 

serghei

Senior Member
I can't spend all my life on this site lol, and won't give a lot of time to analyse your analysis in detail this time.
But I think I agree on your main points about the play. I'll give a couple of thoughts

Pic 2:
Araujo is already to release the ball in the pic. Had he feinted, and looked for Busquets, he would be free and aware I am sure.
Araujo is an alibi player with the ball, he releases too quick and with too little thought (a bit same with Pedri I think)
An essential thing in Busquets position is not to kill the space before the ball can get there and to be cool not to break the angles too much, or hide passing lanes behind him.
Busquets is probably the greatest of all time in this, that's his main strength, knowing when to take one step and in what direction.
I agree the best play probably would be to play in the way you painted. It starts with Araujo looking up and forward, as he is unpressed.

Pic 3:
Is Pique out of the picture, deeper?
I have nothing to say about that, he creates max angle to rebuild through him, increases his space and time, and thus the time for the next player to get free.
He can run forward if he sees an immediate option, for example Messi completely free in the half space, but then Lenglet need to be ready as well

This picture looks very encouraging though, Griezmann, Pedri and Alba are in good positions to try something on that flank.
If it was De Jong instead of Lenglet, he would advance towards the defender circled together with Pedri, and either release Alba or find an even better pass towards Busi, Messi, Pedri or even Griezmann.
But a quick pass to Alba would be good there as well, I think.

About Pic 2. This WAS one of the greatest parts of his game. Mobility and movement are where he is the most declined. You can make a case that in a slow setup his ability on the ball is about as good as it was about 8 years ago. But his movement is much declined.

About Pic 3, the pass can be easily made by Lenglet inside the red square. Pique is not more advanced because he's scared he'll not be able to recover the ground if the ball is lost. Slow and old players are very scared of a high line.

Araujo doesn't have this problem due to his speed, so he instantly pushes up when Levante go very deep.

Yes, you can pass it to Alba, but it's a dead end. No 1 vs 1 player there, nobody fast to attack the flank. It's easier to attack the flank with Dembele and De Jong, two very fast players who can beat a man.
 
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Bobo32

Senior Member
About Pic 2. This WAS one of the greatest parts of his game. Mobility and movement are where he is the most declined. You can make a case that in a slow setup his ability on the ball is about as good as it was about 8 years ago. But his movement is much declined.
Not talking about physical movement, he is maybe slightly worse than before there, but he was always the slowest player on the pitch by some margin.
He still knows better than anyone when and where to take a step in these situations.
About Pic 3, the pass can be easily made by Lenglet inside the red square. Pique is not more advanced because he's scared he'll not be able to recover the ground if the ball is lost. Slow and old players are very scared of a high line.
Yes the pass is available, but when the Levante player takes one step to the left or one more step towards Lenglet, it won't be available.
For all I know, Pique is standning and asking for the ball in front of him, exactly in that space. But I don't think so, as there is no route forward from there in that moment, play should be continued on the flank I think.
Araujo doesn't have this problem due to his speed, so he instantly pushes up when Levante go very deep.
Araujo and Lenglet are terrible in buildup most of the time. Pique is much better generally, and I don't agree on the necessity to push up in this particular situation.
Yes, you can pass it to Alba, but it's a dead end. No 1 vs 1 player there, nobody fast to attack the flank. It's easier to attack the flank with Dembele and De Jong, two very fast players who can beat a man.
They are quickly approaching a 3v2 or even 4v2 there if Lenglet drives forward.
An easy solution would be a pass to Albas left foot for a one touch through ball to Griezmann (or Alba quickly dribbling towards opp. right back for a 2v1, with Pedri free and facing the goal as well)
It's a very good opportunity, and if nothing else, it moves Levante, and Dembele can be more free on the other flank.
Another reason for Pique to be deep in this situation is that it makes it much easier to deliver a one touch pass for Dembele.
 

serghei

Senior Member
Not talking about physical movement, he is maybe slightly worse than before there, but he was always the slowest player on the pitch by some margin.
He still knows better than anyone when and where to take a step in these situations.

Yes the pass is available, but when the Levante player takes one step to the left or one more step towards Lenglet, it won't be available.
For all I know, Pique is standning and asking for the ball in front of him, exactly in that space. But I don't think so, as there is no route forward from there in that moment, play should be continued on the flank I think.

Even if there is no route forward from that space, the pass to wide will be shorter, so faster. This one of the ways to integrate some speed and move around the opponent faster. Pique is way back. It takes a while for him plus some touches to get the ball wide.

But hey, it's a detail.

Araujo and Lenglet are terrible in buildup most of the time Pique is much better generally, and I don't agree on the necessity to push up in this particular situation.

I think Lenglet is our best player in build-up personally. Pique should retire. Araujo is bad indeed, clumsiest on the ball by a distance.

They are quickly approaching a 3v2 or even 4v2 there if Lenglet drives forward.
An easy solution would be a pass to Albas left foot for a one touch through ball to Griezmann (or Alba quickly dribbling towards opp. right back for a 2v1, with Pedri free and facing the goal as well)
It's a very good opportunity, and if nothing else, it moves Levante, and Dembele can be more free on the other flank.
Another reason for Pique to be deep in this situation is that it makes it much easier to deliver a one touch pass for Dembele.

Nah, this is what we do usually. I would like to see less of that, moving the ball from side to side with no purpose (other than have Dembele do his thing with unpredictable results :lol:), and more trying to generate some central combinations. With Pedri, Messi, De Jong. But the plan seems to be different.

3 vs 3, when all 3 players are weak in 1 vs 1, is a dead end. 3 vs 3 on Dembele - De Jong side, which is much faster is a situation worth exploring. Not ideal, but better than Alba + Griezmann trying to do something wide. Even a 2 vs 3 was solved in our favor as it turned out (Dembelve vs 2 + De Jong 1 vs 1). This is a major reason why Griezmann is not useful wide. He can't dribble. Unless you put him on goal, and give him options to shoot or pass very fast, he will just give the ball back to you every time almost.

And Lenglet can't go up like Rambo. He's a central defender in a 3 line. Not a fullback. That's about as much as he can go. He does well in the action imo. Claims the space handed to him, looks to enter some central combinations, nobody is showing up, and decides to switch it since Alba + Griezmann wide is not an enticing situation. Especially as Messi is very far and not looking to seek participation.
 
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vuji_31

Senior Member
There is not many tactics in our game. Our coach is Koeman, he is not in the top 10 coaches in the world, he is not talented and he has never won anything. So our game style is basic.
Only thing which this team have is Messi trying to find Alba. And it is the leftover of previous coaches.

Best thing with this idiot coach is what we always defend more when we lead. He is afraid against any team. IBest example is game against Levante.
After 2-0 we stoped to play and we know what happened.

Also fits half against Atletico. 2 shit teams, and we are not attacking them even he knows we need to win game to be in title race.
 

Bobo32

Senior Member
Even if there is no route forward from that space, the pass to wide will be shorter, so faster. This one of the ways to integrate some speed and move around the opponent faster. Pique is way back. It takes a while for him plus some touches to get the ball wide.

But hey, it's a detail.
Yes a detail but details are important.
The distance of the pass is not important for the time it takes to get the ball there, what matters is how quickly and securely the pass can be made.
With a larger angle, he is less likely to require more touches, and both him and Lenglet have an easier pass to make.
But since we don't even see him on the picture, it's not productive to analyse this much more.
I think Lenglet is our best player in build-up personally. Pique should retire. Araujo is bad indeed, clumsiest on the ball by a distance.
Ok I greatly disagree on Lenglet.
Nah, this is what we do usually. I would like to see less of that, moving the ball from side to side with no purpose (other than have Dembele do his thing with unpredictable results :lol:), and more trying to generate some central combinations. With Pedri, Messi, De Jong. But the plan seems to be different.
Me too, it's too much of planless and purposeless moving from side to side.
But here is a good situation, and the thing is: to get space, you need to move the opponent.
They should THREATEN Levante on that flank, and as I said, could find Pedri in a nice spot from there, or even Messi, with the next pass.
What they shouldn't do is constantly half arse movement of the ball, and too quickly leave opportunites unexplored.
It seems like this is what they did in this occasion, Lenglet letting the entire Levante team keep their positions, instead of having to move 10m to their right before turning the other side.
3 vs 3, when all 3 players are weak in 1 vs 1, is a dead end. 3 vs 3 on Dembele - De Jong side, which is much faster is a situation worth exploring. Not ideal, but better than Alba + Griezmann trying to do something wide. Even a 2 vs 3 was solved in our favor as it turned out (Dembelve vs 2 + De Jong 1 vs 1). This is a major reason why Griezmann is not useful wide. He can't dribble. Unless you put him on goal, and give him options to shoot or pass very fast, he will just give the ball back to you every time almost.
It's not a dead end.
I am sure Alba is the one who creates the most chances from out wide. And it is a 3v2 or even a 3v1 if Lenglet delivers the right pass into space with the outside of his foot. It's a no-brainer for me to go forward there.
And Lenglet can't go up like Rambo. He's a central defender in a 3 line. Not a fullback. That's about as much as he can go. He does well in the action imo. Claims the space handed to him, looks to enter some central combinations, nobody is showing up, and decides to switch it since Alba + Griezmann wide is not an enticing situation. Especially as Messi is very far and not looking to seek participation.
Nah he probably shouldn't. Not because his position hinders it (both Pique and Araujo are already staying, with no opponents), but because he isn't the best one at making those decisions.
But he very often finds himself in those positions, with the ball close the edge of the area. This is one of the reasons I don't like Koemans 3-5-2. Had it been De Jong in that position, things could happen.

As this thread is about Pedri, I can say I halflike his position here, but even better would be if he took one step back and one to his left, asking for the ball from Lenglet.
I can see that he is waiting for the ball towards Alba or maybe potentially Busquets before making his move though.
 

Messi983

Senior Member
I have looked for total number of shots in La Liga and a CL.

Goals in total/shots in total:
Frenkie 3/17
Pedri 4/29
Busi 0/7
= 7/53

Atletico
Carrasco 7/50
Llorente 13/56

Kroos 3/48
Casemiro 7/55
Modric 4/51

The funny thing is: our 3 midfielders combined in the whole La Liga and a CL season have 53 shooting attempts.
Yet, midfielders from Real and Atletico, each of them ALONE have similar amount of shots (50-55 shots per season).

That is because no one shoots in our team and we all look only for Messi.
No wonder that we are losing against all big teams since they know: every ball will be passed to Messi, no one else is brave enough to shoot and majority are horrible at shooting.
Just man mark Messi with 2 players and Barca is dead.

Casemiro 55 shots vs Barca's midfield 53 shots.
Insane.

Sure, our midfielders are not a big goalscoring threat but comparing them to likes of Carrasco and Llorente isn't the best.

Carrasco is a winger and Llorente has played a lot of games as a SS or AMC so much closer to the goal than our midfielders. Likes of Koke and Saul would be a much better comparisions and they have 3 goals and 3 assists combined this season. I've not looked for their number of shots but maybe you can do that. :)

Also, I'd take our "efficiency" over Madrid one. Scoring 3 goals from 17 shots is much better than scoring 3 from 48. And 4/29 is also better than 4/51. ;)
 
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Messi983

Senior Member
In other news, he was send on holidays and won't play against Eibar so he'll spend a week or so at home with his familly before he'll most likely be called up to Spain NT for Euro.
 

kattanib

Well-known member
Pedri defensive work is underrated. Bet you guys miss having Suarez hanging up there with Messi while our opponents are attacking
 

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