9 - Luis Suárez - v1
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CatalinR10
Senior Member
Seems that people forget how good R9 actually was
Bobby Robson's team was not a team. Just bunch of individuals. Yeah they won Copa and Cup Winners Cup but there were players arguing and manager losing respect in his players. There was talk that pep was giving instructions against Robson's plans.
It was more like just pass it to Ronaldo. Who was fricking 19.
I love Suarez but prime Ronaldo (Barcelona Ronaldo) was the best #9 world has ever seen.
We can always look at stats and discuss but we all know they don't paint the whole picture and can actually be misleading at times.
It was more like just pass it to Ronaldo. Who was fricking 19.
I love Suarez but prime Ronaldo (Barcelona Ronaldo) was the best #9 world has ever seen.
We can always look at stats and discuss but we all know they don't paint the whole picture and can actually be misleading at times.
JackaL
New member
People like to throw numbers without putting them in context. Football is tougher these days they say (more professional, more tactical awareness), I agree to some point. However, the competitive balance in domestic leagues as well as in Europe can't be compared. I remember clubs, such as Galatasaray causing trouble to the biggest teams in Europe back in 1996-2000. This doesn't happen anymore as one member pointed above. The competition in the Spanish league is ridiculously skewed. No wonder any top player comes in and has incredible stats.
R9 was godlike though!
R9 was godlike though!
BBZ8800
Senior Member
Exactly.
People who haven't watched football in 90's or early 00's probably won't believe this.
In a simplest way it could be described is probably something like:
= majority of matches of Barcelona vs Getafes of that era were something like 10:5 in shots for Barca with results 2:0, 2:1 and similar
= while today, Barca, Real, Bayern and similar teams are so rich because of internet, new sponsor deals, new possibilities of marketing/broadcasting/selling shirts (and we buy insanely expensive and good players because of this) that current La liga matches usually end as something like 15:5 or 20:5 (and similar) in shots for Barca/Real on average, especially at Camp Nou
So, when you out it on paper, if teams were more even back then (not because we didn't know how to buy Messi, Neymar and Suarez, lol), but because we didn't have money back then for more than 1 or 1 and a half of players of that level... So, if a team on average had 10 shots over 38 rounds, that is 380 shots per Season.
Divided on 3 forwards, let's say that an average Barca's forward had 100 shots in one domestic Season.
And then, from 100 shots, guys like Ronaldinho, Rivaldo, Etoo and similar were scoring 20 goals from 100 attempts.
Today, when Barca and Real have insanely rich teams with 11 superstars, they are usually trashing Getafes and similar with 15-20 shots per match.
If we multiply this with 38 rounds, that is 570 or 760 shots from Barca per Season.
And now, each of our forwards won't get "only" 100 shots in La Liga per season, but more like a shooting-festival with 150 or 200 shots per season (150% or 200% rise) compared to our forwards from 70s, 80s, 90s or 00s.
And of course that today's players will score 30-40 goals from 150-200 attempts, compared with 20 goals from Ronaldinho and Rivaldo from 100 shots back then.
Currently, 30 or 40 goals is the same as 20 goals back then.
This way, it is much easier to explain why:
1. Cr7 is scoring more goals than: 1. Ronaldo9, 2. Ronaldinho, 3. Rivaldo, 4. Etoo
2. why Suarez is scoring more than: 1. Ronaldo9, 2. Ronaldinho, 3. Rivaldo, 4. Etoo
3. why Bale is scoring equally as: 1. Ronaldinho 2. Rivaldo etc
But if we would take into the account how much stronger (due to income and sponsors) Barca and Real are today, then a more realistic view on a number of goals scored would be:
1. R9's 50 goals are like 75 or 100 in the current era
-- so, not even Messi is scoring that much
-- and especially Cr7 and Suarez can't catch those numbers
2. Ronaldinho's or Rivaldo's 20-25 goals per season are like 40-50 goals today
-- then Messi and Cr7 are around those numbers
-- but guys like Neymar and Bale are way behind them, which makes much more sense
3. also, then 20 goals from guys like Bale in today's competition is much different than 20 goals from Ronaldinho or Rivaldo back then
I mean, according to stats, Rivaldo was a meh player.
Neymar and similar players seriously couldn't lace boots to Rivaldo's goals, magic and tricks.
And according to goals from the current era, Neymar is twice as player as Rivaldo
For younger guys, you don't know what you have been missing in Rivaldo-magic:
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CatalinR10
Senior Member
BarçaBarça
New member
Wow, this forum has really have some people who takes things to the extreme everytime something good/bad happens e.g. Neymar plays bad - sell him, Team having a down-period and doesn't break historic records - fire Lucho, Suarez back in form - better than Brazilian Ronaldo.
Take it easy, I know most people in here does, but it is a little irritating that the discourse is set by the ones with the most extreme posts.
Take it easy, I know most people in here does, but it is a little irritating that the discourse is set by the ones with the most extreme posts.
JackaL
New member
Football used to be a game of almost no statistics. Then they started to collect some and right now, even if it is just starting, the bigger clubs have their own statisticians etc. However, believe me none of them (not even the kit manager) looks just at goals. Everything they do is for goals but goal scoring as such does not tell a lot. Football was also always harder to analyze in terms of stats then the stats-heavy north american games as individuals can't have as much influence on the game as in e.g. NBA etc. Messi is probably the one guy that comes closest to an NBA star in terms of individual (measurable) impact on the game. The more useful stats the better of course, especially because you can eliminate conventional wisdom. However, what is usually not really read through stats is the impact of certain types of players. E.g. even now we don't know how to statistically analyze and assess defenders nor goalkeepers. As such, you will never see how a player as important as Puyol was performing statistically in a game or throughout his career. The same goes for superstar players who improve the game of their friends as well. Take Messi, the type of assists, runs etc. he does is so important that even a comparably overaverage footballer like Pedro did shine (in his best Pep years). The same goes for Iniesta or Xavi. They make others better on the pitch. Cantona used to be this guy for Manchester United back in the 90ies, all of a sudden players would take volleys and try stuff only players from the south (EPL perspective) could do and they were successful.
Suarez is the best (straight) striker in the world at the moment.
Neymar is a great footballer with tons of talent, the question is, how does his individual game impact the team's overall performance? Does he make his friends better?
Messi - no need to answer that.
Ronaldinho, beyond his aesthetics, this guy was incredible.
Suarez is the best (straight) striker in the world at the moment.
Neymar is a great footballer with tons of talent, the question is, how does his individual game impact the team's overall performance? Does he make his friends better?
Messi - no need to answer that.
Ronaldinho, beyond his aesthetics, this guy was incredible.
The true quality of Suarez is not in the 4 goals and 3 assists. The true quality was shown on Bartra's goal where he directs Bartra on where to make his run. Suarez does this every game. He's like an on field coach and he makes the team better. That is something no one else does to his level.
You can also see that Rakitic celebrated his goal using the Suarez celebration in appreciation of the setup. The guy is infectious to his teammates.
You can also see that Rakitic celebrated his goal using the Suarez celebration in appreciation of the setup. The guy is infectious to his teammates.
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Mitchell1978
Senior Member
Ronaldinho wasn't that great a goalscorer, all 3 you mention are better, more efficient goalscorers.
Though i somewhat agree that scoring when playing with other world class players is easier, the average goal-per-game hasn't really changed that much (up slightly but not that much), and saying that 25 goals back in the day equals 40-50 goals now is just not true and shows massive overrating of the game back then.
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BBZ8800
Senior Member
2005, our first title with Rijkaard+Ronnie+Etoo:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004%E2%80%9305_La_Liga
-- Barcelona 73 goals
-- Real 71 goals
= combined 144 goals
2006, our 2nd season with Rijkaard+Ronnie+Etoo+young Messi+Larsson+Guily (we won a Champions league also):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005%E2%80%9306_La_Liga
-- Barcelona 80
-- Real 70
= combined 150 goals
2012:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011%E2%80%9312_La_Liga
-- Real alone 121 goals
-- Barcelona alone 114 goals
= combined 235 goals
2015:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014%E2%80%9315_La_Liga
-- Barca 110
-- Real 118
= combined 228
2005: Barca+Real=144 goals
2006: Barca+Real=150 goals
2010: Barca+Real=200 goals
2011: Barca+Real=197 goals
2012: Barca+Real=235 goals
2013: Barca+Real=218 goals
2014: Barca+Real=204 goals
2015: Barca+Real=228 goals
Or, if you want more "fun", 2000' Rivaldo vs Galacticos (Real won a Champions league):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999%E2%80%932000_La_Liga
-- Barca 70 goals (Rivaldo, Figo, Kluivert, Luis Enrique, Guardiola)
-- Real 58 goals (CL winners)
= combined 128 goals
-- so, Real Madrid scored alone 121 goals in 2012, and Rivaldo's Barca+Galacticos Real Madrid combined scored 128 goals in 2000' season.
It doesn't sound strange to you?
What, Cr7 and his friends are today twice as good as Rivaldo+Figo+Kluivert+Galacticos combined?
Again, no wonder that every current attacker scores 1,5x or 2,0x more than Rivaldo, Ronaldinho, Etoo and other guys.
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