9 - Robert Lewandowski

[Temptation]

Is that really the case though? Vinicius hasn't lost his flair playing for Real Madrid. Firmino didn't lose it playing for Liverpool while he was still good lol.

Neymar at Barca and so on.

The reason guys like Grealish are coached into becoming a part of the system is because they're simply not good enough to be an individualistic player for a big team. Compared to the players I mentioned his flair is worth fuck all.

I edited and mentioned the old school coaches bit. So that pretty much explains the Vinicius bit. Carlo doesn't micromanage.

Neymar is probably the game's last pure entertainer at a high level of club Football.

Compare the frequency of that to the era which went by....

How many Jay Jay Okocha's are active today???

 

[Yannik]

Football is way more micro managed these days. There are definite patterns of play which many teams have to abide by.

This is why so many of "Maverick talents" are extinct, outdated.

The individual entertainment factor from the sport is diminishing.

But better tactical units are being put out with better physicality and team ethics.

Lesser Flawed Genius personalities and more robotic efficient machines.

A maverick like Grealish is being coached into becoming more of a system product in sync with the rest at an elite team by an elite coach.

A player like St. Maximan will have the same things done to him as soon as he moves to an elite club.

Great collectives but flair killers.

Nothing I said qualifies as "hard facts" though. There's no thumb rules here. Just my subjective observational opinion.

On the other hand, old school coaches like Ferguson and Ancelotti never micromanage their attackers and just roll with a "go express yourself and lemme get the best outta you" psych...

Agreed, the 2000s was a decade full of individual wonders and flair and beauty which is why people nostalgically reminisce it as the best era.
The problem is though that those magicians would be eaten alive today by modern pressing machines. There's no "scarcity of individual talent", whoever thinks this obviously hasn't seen what's going at big academies like City, PSG etc. Issue is that "individual talent" is not enough anymore to make it big, so 90% of those old fashioned magicians don't make it pro.

 

[KingLeo10]

Agreed, the 2000s was a decade full of individual wonders and flair and beauty which is why people nostalgically reminisce it as the best era.
The problem is though that those magicians would be eaten alive today by modern pressing machines. There's no "scarcity of individual talent", whoever thinks this obviously hasn't seen what's going at big academies like City, PSG etc. Issue is that "individual talent" is not enough anymore to make it big, so 90% of those old fashioned magicians don't make it pro.

Not the 2000s but close enough as it's very early 2010s - You think Heynckes Bayern with prime Robbery and attacking flair would get eaten alive by the Bayern that lost last season to Villareal in CL?

What.

 

[Yannik]

So you think Heynckes Bayern with prime Robbery and attacking flair would get eaten alive by the Bayern that lost last season to Villareal in CL?

What.

Heynckes Bayern from the 2000s?
You mean with Van Buyten and Demichelis in defense? Well yeah, I'm sure they'd have fun defending Mane, Sane, Coman and co.

Not the 2000s but close enough as it's very early 2010s

No, but that is because it's only 10 years rather than 20 years ago. The CL winner Bayern from 2001 would probably lose to todays Bayern that lost to Villareal. Yes I believe that.

 

[jamrock]

None of the CL semi-finalists of last season had anywhere the caliber of players as this XI Stop it.

This XI is just pure filth, Just craziness.

 

[fergus90]

It's really difficult to directly compare era's directly, as with most things in life football has progressed and changes from era to era.

Players are fitter and stronger than ever and live more dedicated lifestyles these days. A lot of the talents now are insanely fast and direct rather than skilfull.

I think Neymar was the last of a dying breed really. Vini jr is super skilful too but even he has the directness that modern football demands.

 

[Horatio]

I think Neymar was the last of a dying breed really. Vini jr is super skilful too but even he has the directness that modern football demands.

Why Antony will fail.

 

[KingLeo10]

Heynckes Bayern from the 2000s?
You mean with Van Buyten and Demichelis in defense? Well yeah, I'm sure they'd have fun defending Mane, Sane, Coman and co.



No, but that is because it's only 10 years rather than 20 years ago. The CL winner Bayern from 2001 would probably lose to todays Bayern that lost to Villareal. Yes I believe that.

I'm not arguing that every past CL winner is better than every current non CL winner.

Bayern 2001 is not thought of among the strongest CL sides of all time. So yes, they would probably lose to Bayern from last season. I don't think they'd get crushed though.

Bayern 2012-2013, on the other hand, is thought of as a top, top CL side all time. And they would beat Bayern of last season handily IMO. As would other sides recognized as all time great CL sides - Carlo's Milan, Guardiola's Barca. RM's CL wins are too recent to count them here (I do tend to agree Galactico RM was overrated, as they were simply too lazy and washed up for the most part).

What I'm saying is that while I agree tactics and training methods evolve over time, sometimes there is just such a collection of talent that it surpasses tactics/ advancements. Like Benzema and Modric freestyling last year's CL against tactical monsters Chelsea, City, and Pool...just to give another minor example.

Of course, this argument of mine has a reasonable limit. For example, as extraordinary as Ajax 70s or RM 50s or Bayern 70s were...they would get smoked by modern teams. But football has been athletic and "modern" since the 90s (more and more so now, but 90s onwards is comparable IMO)

 

[Barcaman]

Not fair to compare but one can feel if they enjoyed football more than or now. I vote: then

Funny how amid all the talk about diversity football somehow fell short and it's looking more and more robotic.

 

[fergus90]

Money is the root cause. The pressure to win and keep winning is higher than ever.

Why is why every year the gap to the top teams and the rest just gets wider and wider.

Effectiveness over entertainment.

 

[Yannik]

I'm not arguing that every past CL winner is better than every current non CL winner.

Bayern 2001 is not thought of among the strongest CL sides of all time. So yes, they would probably lose to Bayern from last season. I don't think they'd get crushed though.

Bayern 2012-2013, on the other hand, is thought of as a top, top CL side all time. And they would beat Bayern of last season handily IMO. As would other sides recognized as all time great CL sides - Carlo's Milan, Guardiola's Barca. RM's CL wins are too recent to count them here (I do tend to agree Galactico RM was overrated, as they were simply too lazy and washed up for the most part).

What I'm saying is that while I agree tactics and training methods evolve over time, sometimes there is just such a collection of talent that it surpasses tactics/ advancements. Like Benzema and Modric freestyling last year's CL against tactical monsters Chelsea, City, and Pool...just to give another minor example.

Of this, this argument of mine has a reasonable limit. For example, as extraordinary as Ajax 70s or RM 50s or Bayern 70s were...they would get smoked by modern teams. But football has been athletic and "modern" since the 90s (more and more so now, but 90s onwards is comparable IMO)

But you can clearly see that there has been a consistent concentration at the top, because top teams just are better now. Ancelotti's Milan spend more time outside the top 3 in Italy than inside it. They won the CL twice, but they were certainly no all time great side, just like the Galacticos they were more name than game.

The 2000s has been an era where mid and top were not far apart. That's how Valencia, Leverkusen, Monaco, Porto appear in CL finals (and even the big teams like Bayern were not particularly impressive). Or that's how Greece can win an EC, in which the Czech Republic was the only good team. Or that's how the worst Germany squad in decades reached the WC final vs USA, Paraguay and semifinalist South Korea and that wasn't even deserved, just us being outplayed and getting saved by Kahn until he fucked up in the final. The early to mid 2000s wasn't a football wonderland, it was a confusing time with great individuals but troubled collectives. You'd have all these legends of the game playing at the same time, but guess who's in a CL final right now: None of them.
Sure, you still had "supersquads" in the 2000s also, but for every squad like Milan or the Galacticos you had 5 Bayerns, and Liverpools that had above-average squads but would still beat them.

Now back to the present? Where are the upsets? Big teams are too consistent and too big. They have mopped up everything below them, when a player at Dortmund, Ajax or Benfica does well, guess what happens: He plays at City next year. Or at Bayern. Or Madrid. Or Liverpool. And CL finals happen between the biggest teams now. Tottenham was really the only exception in that whole decade. It's sad honestly, because it has become very predictable.

 

[jamrock]

Like of Liverpool with their mentality monsters, & the great pep and all the talented teams he's had since leaving Barcelona, have all been best by teams that have players with that cheat code that disrupts the best laid plan of any team or coach, the last time pep won the CL was when he a team filled with cheat code players & Liverpool needed to face spurs to win.

Yes the game has evolved a lot over the years, but if you put X super talented player in this modern era with all it's advances, he's gonna take combine it with his superior talent & explode.

 

[KingLeo10]

But you can clearly see that there has been a consistent concentration at the top, because top teams just are better now. Ancelotti's Milan spend more time outside the top 3 in Italy than inside it. They won the CL twice, but they were certainly no all time great side, just like the Galacticos they were more name than game.

The 2000s has been an era where mid and top were not far apart. That's how Valencia, Leverkusen, Monaco, Porto appear in CL finals (and even the big teams like Bayern were not particularly impressive). Or that's how Greece can win an EC, in which the Czech Republic was the only good team. Or that's how the worst Germany squad in decades reached the WC final vs USA, Paraguay and semifinalist South Korea and that wasn't even deserved, just us being outplayed and getting saved by Kahn until he fucked up in the final. The early to mid 2000s wasn't a football wonderland, it was a confusing time with great individuals but troubled collectives.
Yes, you still had "supersquads" in the 2000s also, but for every squad like Milan or the Galacticos you had 5 Bayerns, and Liverpools that had above-average squads but would still beat them.

Now back to the present? Where are the upsets? Big teams are too consistent and too big. They have mopped up everything below them, when a player at Dortmund, Ajax or Benfica does well, guess what happens: He plays at City next year. Or at Bayern. Or Madrid. Or Liverpool. And CL finals happen between the biggest teams now. Tottenham was really the only exception in that whole decade.

1990s CL finals:

Belgrade - Marseille
Barcelona - Sampdoria
Marseille - Milan
Milan - Barcelona
Milan - Ajax
Juventus - Ajax
Dortmund - Juventus
RM - Juventus
United - Bayern
RM - Valencia

15 historical teams out of 20 finalists (excluded Marseille, RSB, and Valencia). Ajax 90s are considered one of the best club sides since 90s and have historical pedigree ("big club"), but if you want to throw them out, that's still 13 out of 20.

2000s

Bayern - Valencia
RM - Leverkusen
Milan - Juventus
Porto - Monaco
Liverpool - Milan
Barcelona - Arsenal
Milan - Liverpool
United - Chelsea
Barcelona - United
Bayern - Inter

14 of the 20 are historical sides (the usual top clubs in history)

2010s

Barcelona - United
Bayern - Chelsea
Bayern - Dortmund
RM - AM
Barcelona - Juventus
RM - AM
RM - Pool
Pool - Spurs
Bayern - PSG

That's 14 historical sides.

So really...it's the same historical clubs every decade that run the CL. Not much, if anything has changed.

Teams like AM, PSG, City, Chelsea of the last decade are no different than Henry's Arsenal, Chelsea, Leverkusen, Mourinho's Porto of the 2000s or the Marseille, Ajax, and Dortmund of 90s. Every decade will have 4-5 finalists like that.

But the historical giants make about 14 of the 20 CL finalists every year. Since last 3 decades.

 

[Barcilliant]

There's a great video on YouTube about the demise of the traditional number 10. It basically boils down to pressing.
Eto was an unbelievable striker. The quality of players is not as good as yesteryears but the fitness and tactics are better.
There's a good video bout Ancelotti and how he organises his defense but gives license to his attackers to express themselves. Contrast that with Peo and Klopp who ate very much micro managers. It may be the reason City have difficulty in the cl. Ko comps require teams to adapt and Peps teams ate always under restrictions and can't express themselves like the should when a situation is different.

 

[Yannik]

1990s CL finals:

Belgrade - Marseille
Barcelona - Sampdoria
Marseille - Milan
Milan - Barcelona
Milan - Ajax
Juventus - Ajax
Dortmund - Juventus
RM - Juventus
United - Bayern
RM - Valencia

15 historical teams out of 20 finalists (excluded Marseille, RSB, and Valencia). Ajax 90s are considered one of the best club sides since 90s and have historical pedigree ("big club"), but if you want to throw them out, that's still 13 out of 20.

2000s

Bayern - Valencia
RM - Leverkusen
Milan - Juventus
Porto - Monaco
Liverpool - Milan
Barcelona - Arsenal
Milan - Liverpool
United - Chelsea
Barcelona - United
Bayern - Inter

14 of the 20 are historical sides (the usual top clubs in history)

2010s

Barcelona - United
Bayern - Chelsea
Bayern - Dortmund
RM - AM
Barcelona - Juventus
RM - AM
RM - Pool
Pool - Spurs
Bayern - PSG

That's 14 historical sides.

So really...it's the same historical clubs every decade that run the CL. Not much, if anything has changed.

Teams like AM, PSG, City, Chelsea of the last decade are no different than Henry's Arsenal, Chelsea, Leverkusen, Mourinho's Porto of the 2000s or the Marseille, Ajax, and Dortmund of 90s. Every decade will have 4-5 finalists like that.

But the historical giants make about 14 of the 20 CL finalists every year. Since last 3 decades.

They are different, which is why the "historical argument" makes no sense here.
City and PSG have the 1st and 2nd most valuable squad in world football, Chelsea is No 5, they are/were the favourites to win. Leverkusen, Porto, Marseille, Dortmund etc were not even close to something like that.
Megaclubs like PSG and City are not just a trend on a good run like these clubs you wanna compare them to. This isn't about historical clubs. Ajax is a historical club, but it would be a huge upset if they'd appear in a final.