9 - Robert Lewandowski

[Andresito]

That's borderline an own goal. If the defender isn't there, the ball doesn't go in, let alone head towards goal.

 

[Birdy]

Logic would indicate that the "too big, too consistent teams" would be even MORE likely to consistently win in the earlier KO stages (R16s or QFs). And not be upset...

Anyway, I'm providing at least data points and you've dug in on a narrative you've long held about "big money ruining football" and are just applying another variant of that here. For the record, money has impacted football parity for the worse, but it hasn't manifested in CL finalist distribution just yet. Teams with a pedigree of winning keep making these CL finals.

City and PSG didn't just lose v Bayern and RM. They lost v United (literally academy kids), Lyon, Spurs, and Monaco. Why should the former count and not the latter? That is cherry picking data at its finest.

No.
You have a certain obsession with CL, and always cite CL data to support your argument.
but CL remains always a CUP competition, where LUCK (of draw, and of the knockout format) will always play a role.
The CLs RM won since 2014 are a proof alone that CL is not even close to being indicative of the best team in Europe or the best teams in Europe each season.

But only if you compare the number of points the top teams amass in their domestic leagues, how more difficult it has become for a mid to upper table side to even think of winning one of the top leagues (Leicester was the only exception to a rule that is becoming more and more inevitable, look at how many teams won the Bundesliga from Bayern in the early 2000s and compare it to now),
and of course how more easily top talent is concentrated on the same 10-12 top clubs every season, you can see the difference.
And you can see also why SuperLeague is the future compared to an outdated CL where groups are boring games of PSG against Maccabi Haifa

The thought experiment Yannik proposed is not far-fetched.
Huynkes' Bayern of 2011-13, one of the best sides of last decade, would have been eaten alive by Bayern 21-22, yes the Bayern that went out to Villareal.
It's a simple thought experiment.
Watch how slower that 11-13 Bayern were playing the ball from the back, that the sides back then were not even close to the aggressiveness they show in pressing today, and how higher they start the pressing. That Bayern would not have been able to take a breath against the Bayern of today.

Football has evolved, and it's only natural and to be expected. Nothing strange about it

 

[KingLeo10]

Huynkes' Bayern of 2011-13, one of the best sides of last decade, would have been eaten alive by Bayern 21-22, yes the Bayern that went out to Villareal.

No. We're never going to see eye to eye on this. Player quality trumps tactics to a larger degree than tactics trump player quality. Unless the gap in years is more than say 10-20 years.

Besides, you can't call me out on obsession of CL while literally chalking up RM's 5 CL wins to "voodoo" and "black magic". 1 or 2 CLs could be chalked up to statistical anomaly but not 5 in 9 years

As prestigious as the league is and as heavily as it counts, CL is the most prestigious club competition. Teams that win both league and CL are indisputably the best. Not just the league. With league win only, it's a matter of debate. No longer indisputable.

 

[fergus90]

Given the choice of the two, I'd picking winning the league over the CL but each to their own of course.

I have noticed though in recent years, league wins are almost dismissed depending on Champions League performances. But that might be from spoilt fanbases who have gotten very accustomed to their teams winning their respective leagues.

One European competition I miss, The Cup Winners Cup!

 

[Donauwelle]

The thought experiment Yannik proposed is not far-fetched.
Huynkes' Bayern of 2011-13, one of the best sides of last decade, would have been eaten alive by Bayern 21-22, yes the Bayern that went out to Villareal.
It's a simple thought experiment.
Watch how slower that 11-13 Bayern were playing the ball from the back, that the sides back then were not even close to the aggressiveness they show in pressing today, and how higher they start the pressing. That Bayern would not have been able to take a breath against the Bayern of today.

That Heynckes side of 12/13 was far versatile than you point it out here. They were used to play against sides that were pressing like hell. That was already the trend in the Bundesliga then and was a learning process the 11/12 season when they really had a lot problems with it. Klopp is known for his love for Gegenpressing. You cannot just see the CL but have to see the league, too. The opponents in the CL usually are different to the opponents the league offers. What I miss about the teams afterwards that is the way with which Schweinsteiger or others in this team could control the speed of matches.

The Bayern team last season started very well but somewhen mid season Nagelsmann tried too much and wanted too much changes and flexibility in lineups and formations and that backfired. You remark right now that they have far more stability in the back and the build up now than they had the last seasons - and without Lewy they have a flexibiity going forward that they did not have with a target man. Nagelsmann told that he last year probably wanted to rule too much and has given more power to the leading players now. Question just is if they sometimes might lack the killer modus - but Lewy is not the guy who always is clinical and we had matches like we had last Saturday even with him in the lineup.

 

[jamrock]

That cam gives the false impression that he intended to shoot with a backheel!

It was deflected brother. He was intending to backheel to Dembele.

Same with the deflected assist to Ansu last week.
He has been great so far, but some of his actions being blown out of proportion doesn't pay him justice

Yea this.

 

[1993Kaan1993]

Oil clubs are chockers until they are not. Money tend to win out in the long when the risk of funds disappearing is a non factor.

Florentino sees this and this is why he pushes for the Superleague.

he pushed for Superleague, since, Real would be only team with a suitable stadium for ESL and would make fortune with it and Spanish Goverment would fund Real as much as they do.

Spanish Goverment funded Real's stadium renovation via their off shore company called Providence. Firstly, they bought Real' internet rights for 500 m, then they got Real' trivial future sponsorship income for 405 m(200 m+205m)

https://www.insideworldfootball.com/2017/02/08/real-madrid-line-e500m-internet-rights-sale/
https://www.sportspromedia.com/news...ncome-providence-dave-hopkinson-mlse-la-liga/
https://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/lo24zq/marca_recently_american_company_providence_has/

you can find many links about this news on google. l reckon you didn't know that Spanish Goverment funding Barnebau renovation.

 

[Birdy]

No. We're never going to see eye to eye on this. Player quality trumps tactics to a larger degree than tactics trump player quality. Unless the gap in years is more than say 10-20 years.

Besides, you can't call me out on obsession of CL while literally chalking up RM's 5 CL wins to "voodoo" and "black magic". 1 or 2 CLs could be chalked up to statistical anomaly but not 5 in 9 years

As prestigious as the league is and as heavily as it counts, CL is the most prestigious club competition. Teams that win both league and CL are indisputably the best. Not just the league. With league win only, it's a matter of debate. No longer indisputable.

I don't disagree that CL is more prestigious as a trophy compared to the domestic league.
The question is which one reflects better the quality of a team, and that depends on the format of the competition.
There, the domestic league is the most accurate mirror, hands down!

As for RM, yes they take pride in fluke CL wins, but you shouldn't buy into their shaky rhetoric.
If they were so good, why didn't they combine their CL wins with league wins? 2017 and 2022 only, out of all CLs, and we know how they won last CL.
so, 5 CLs in 9 years, where only once you can claim they had a truly good team that deserved all the titles won that season.
Isn't that indicative? When they fail in the competition that is the most reflective of a team's quality?

 

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

Bayern 12/13 >>> Bayern 21/22

 

[Birdy]

That Heynckes side of 12/13 was far versatile than you point it out here. They were used to play against sides that were pressing like hell. That was already the trend in the Bundesliga then and was a learning process the 11/12 season when they really had a lot problems with it. Klopp is known for his love for Gegenpressing. You cannot just see the CL but have to see the league, too. The opponents in the CL usually are different to the opponents the league offers. What I miss about the teams afterwards that is the way with which Schweinsteiger or others in this team could control the speed of matches.

The Bayern team last season started very well but somewhen mid season Nagelsmann tried too much and wanted too much changes and flexibility in lineups and formations and that backfired. You remark right now that they have far more stability in the back and the build up now than they had the last seasons - and without Lewy they have a flexibiity going forward that they did not have with a target man. Nagelsmann told that he last year probably wanted to rule too much and has given more power to the leading players now. Question just is if they sometimes might lack the killer modus - but Lewy is not the guy who always is clinical and we had matches like we had last Saturday even with him in the lineup.

About the Bayern problems last season, I didn't go into that.
I just picked a top-6 or top-8 if you want team of last season to make the poin.

They were used in 2013 to do it well against the pressing sides of THAT time. yes.
But pressing changed since then in its speed, efficiency, relentless nature.
Klopp's gegenpressing at Dortmund is 2 or 3 times slower and less efficient that today's pressing. Klopp himself evolved it so much at Liverpool.
If you just watch a game from that time and compare the pace and speed at which they were doing even the same things, there is a huge gap there.
A side like Villareal of last season would have caused unprecedented problems to all top teams of 2012 or 2013

 

[Fati_Future_BallonDor]

I don't disagree that CL is more prestigious as a trophy compared to the domestic league.
The question is which one reflects better the quality of a team, and that depends on the format of the competition.
There, the domestic league is the most accurate mirror, hands down!

As for RM, yes they take pride in fluke CL wins, but you shouldn't buy into their shaky rhetoric.
If they were so good, why didn't they combine their CL wins with league wins? 2017 and 2022 only, out of all CLs, and we know how they won last CL.
so, 5 CLs in 9 years, where only once you can claim they had a truly good team that deserved all the titles won that season.
Isn't that indicative? When they fail in the competition that is the most reflective of a team's quality?

Real is worlclass in focusing on one match, they have problems to be constant (in league). For example Chelsea hasnt been impressive last season in league but imo they were the most difficult team for Real last season and would have been probably way better than Liverpool in ucl final.

 

[Gnidrologist]

That's borderline an own goal. If the defender isn't there, the ball doesn't go in, let alone head towards goal.

Great players get more lucky.

 

[Morten]

Football doesn't always evolve to a higher level.

Going by that logic, one could also say that Barca 2011 would look out of place in todays game, does anyone really believe that?

 

[KingLeo10]

I don't disagree that CL is more prestigious as a trophy compared to the domestic league.
The question is which one reflects better the quality of a team, and that depends on the format of the competition.
There, the domestic league is the most accurate mirror, hands down!

As for RM, yes they take pride in fluke CL wins, but you shouldn't buy into their shaky rhetoric.
If they were so good, why didn't they combine their CL wins with league wins? 2017 and 2022 only, out of all CLs, and we know how they won last CL.
so, 5 CLs in 9 years, where only once you can claim they had a truly good team that deserved all the titles won that season.
Isn't that indicative? When they fail in the competition that is the most reflective of a team's quality?

2017 they were indisputably the best team in the world. Dominant in LL and CL.

2018 and 2014 they were the best, because of dominance in CL. They beat Klopp's Dortmund, Bayern (5-0 lol), and AM in 2014 and PSG, Juventus, Bayern, and Liverpool in 2018. And in both seasons, won those rounds fairly convincingly. Strong league performance in 2014; they didn't bother with the league in 2018, because does anyone really believe an EV Barca with Lord Paulinho could beat an RM in the league that was beating PSG, Juve, Bayern, and Pool in 4 KO rounds? Nah.

2021 they beat the next 4 strongest teams in the world back to back to back to back. That's too much for me to call it a fluke. Not 4 KO ties in a row. They maybe weren't the best in terms of squad but they had the best mental strength. I would say it's between them and Pool for best team in the world last season. I don't have much of a problem if the vote goes for Pool, but RM had a strong case.

2016 they fluked the CL. Everyone agrees on that one.

 

[Gari]

I don't disagree that CL is more prestigious as a trophy compared to the domestic league.
The question is which one reflects better the quality of a team, and that depends on the format of the competition.
There, the domestic league is the most accurate mirror, hands down!

As for RM, yes they take pride in fluke CL wins, but you shouldn't buy into their shaky rhetoric.
If they were so good, why didn't they combine their CL wins with league wins? 2017 and 2022 only, out of all CLs, and we know how they won last CL.
so, 5 CLs in 9 years, where only once you can claim they had a truly good team that deserved all the titles won that season.
Isn't that indicative? When they fail in the competition that is the most reflective of a team's quality?

You have to do it like Real Madrid. They win the Champions League - it's the most prestigious, they win La Liga - it becomes the most prestigious, they only win the Spanish Cup - they take it by bus around the city. Treble, 6 trophies is nonsense, 3 Champions League is class.