Alejandro Grimaldo

[serghei]

That's where you are wrong. No youngster is "good enough to play". You have to give them minutes in order for them to improve. The only thing Bartra epitomises is the fact that a wonderful centre back talent turns into a rusty confidence less defender after not been given enough sufficient game time after performing well when he DID get a chance.

True Galning, but for some of them game time won't change much. There is also the case of the player's individual plateau. No amount of game time would've made Montoya become a world class RB for example. He had problems in his game that had little to do with lack of match practice. So, yes, we need to give game time to our young players, but only for a select few. Only for those who will take those minutes and will become future world class players. Bartra, Montoya, Sergi Roberto, Tello and others were/are not good enough to warrant such an investment. We are not the kind of club who can afford to sacrifice trophies for raising players.

 

[Sea_of_Frost]

Yaya played very few games at CB here . one of them was the game against Many in 2009
But Busquets was pushed to become CDM over Yaya even with a healthy squad.Yaya was benched a lot of time for Busquets and most of fans was frustrated by the decision and rightfully .Yaya was superior player back then and benching him for Busquets didn't make sense .eventually it proved to be better long term move

But doesn't the point still stand? I mean, if the Marquez injury didn't happen, Busi wouldn't have ever had that chance (which again I'll say he made the most out of). Once he got the chance, the rest was history, wasn't it? Although, Pep deserves credit with sticking with the lad after seeing what he could do. I just wanted the whole story to be told in the discussion, which includes the reason why Busi was called up in the first place, hence it's not the same as Pep suddenly gaining trust, Busi made him believe that he was good enough.

P.S: I'm really sorry if what I said about the Marquez injury is false. I'm 16 lol, so I was 10 when it happened. However, I strongly believe that was factually correct, as my memory isn't THAT bad.
.
Lucho has played our youngsters much more that Tito/Tata, but obviously it's an aspect to be improved. Eg: Munir had 10 appearances, Sandro had a chance, Samper had the start in CL (and got to train witht the first team at times), Adama played against Huesca.

And La Masia is overhyped. It's a WC academy like that of Ajax etc. Remove our:
1. Golden generation (87-89) which we were INSANELY LUCKY to have [Messi (top 3 all time), Pique (WC defender), Pedro (WC forward in his prime), Fabregas (WC for the first half of the season wherever he plays), Busi (who'll eventually go down as one the greatest CDM's ever), and Alba if you count him]
2. Xavi (again insanely lucky to gain the best holding mid-fielder of all time)
3. Iniesta (same just CAM, as good if not better than Zidane was)

Then we gain a truer vision of what La Masia actually is, a great academy that produces WC players every once in a while.

 

[khaled_a_d]

But doesn't the point still stand? I mean, if the Marquez injury didn't happen, Busi wouldn't have ever had that chance (which again I'll say he made the most out of). Once he got the chance, the rest was history, wasn't it? Although, Pep deserves credit with sticking with the lad after seeing what he could do. I just wanted the whole story to be told in the discussion, which includes the reason why Busi was called up in the first place, hence it's not the same as Pep suddenly gaining trust, Busi made him believe that he was good enough.

http://www.transfermarkt.com/sergio-busquets/leistungsdaten/spieler/65230/plus/?saison=2008
No,Busquets played 41 games in total in 08-09 he was mainly Yaya back up but he played a lot of games as sub too .Puyol/Pique/Marquez rotated for CB position .Alves was RB with Puyol as his sub while Abidal and Sylvinho played the LB positiion
We had too many injuries/suspension in CL final .no Alves ,No Marquez & No Abidal so we had to use Yaya as CB

Busquets was Pep guy since his tenure with Barca B .he played a lot in Pep 1st year .
But in 2nd year Yaya was benched for him .gone from 41 games played to 37 while Busquets from his 41 to 52 . this wasn't fan favorite decision at all and Pep criticized for it .some gone as far as saying he was played because of Pep friendship with his father IIRC
Pep decided to sell Yaya and put full faith in Busquets in 2010.was a risky decision that could have backfired .but thankfully it didn't

 

[khaled_a_d]

That's where you are wrong. No youngster is "good enough to play". You have to give them minutes in order for them to improve. The only thing Bartra epitomises is the fact that a wonderful centre back talent turns into a rusty confidence less defender after not been given enough sufficient game time after performing well when he DID get a chance.
There is no place in the squad for Grimaldo but we have Adriano on the bench almost every game and then there's still Douglas. Are they better you think? No way. At least Grimaldo has the potential to become a good left back.

Every young player needs a coach that believes in them, Lucho simply doesn't believe and plays result-wise, short-term teams. You think Munir, Sandro, Adama, Halilovic, Samper, Grimaldo,... will all of a sudden "be good enough" when they are 25 years old? No, they need time. Time Tito, Tata and now Lucho don't give them. Pep gave talented youngsters a shot and then made decisions from there. Lucho doesn't play anyone and then people just say "it's because La Masia is overhyped".
Iniesta, Xavi, Victor Valdés, Pedro, Busi,... all got sufficient playing time to improve as a footballer, to raise their game that extra level from being a talent to being a pro. Was Sergio Busquets "good enough" when he benched arguably the best defensive midfielder at the time Yaya Touré? Again, no. He played one season as a pro in the fourth division. If we would have this situation now people would say "What's the point in benching Touré? The man is awesome. It's normal that Samper isn't good enough to replace him."

Lucho saying that there's nothing better than seeing players from La Masia playing for the first team and actually handling them well are two different things. Him totally neglecting the youth set-up is the only thing I dislike about him.

Lucho already gave enough chances for the young players .S.Roberto,Rafinha,Sandro,Munir and to lesser extent Samper all get minutes last year (Bartra was no more youngster .and he was never gonna be a wonderful CB)
This preseason he gave chance to same players (can scratch Roberto now considering he is 23 already) and gave guys like Gambua & Alen the chance to play too.may be he isn't as Pep in that regard but he is still doing good job in it


There is actually young players who are "good enough" .Messi was good enough,same with Iniesta,Xavi ,Puyol,Pedro .some was good enough when they are 18 like Messi .some were good enough at 22 like Pedro .one of the worst parts in some of our youngsters (and fans) that they aren't ready to wait .Samper clearly has no business in playing lot of time with 1st team.benched with Barca B.didn't have Lucho trust this preseason yet everyone will blame the coach and director for telling him to stay longer with B team to refine his game .why?because he is fan favorite .
Same thing with Adama.kid has long way to go but he isn't interested in taking the long way and want a shortcut


Young players need to warrant being promoted .they can warrant that they deserve getting some playing time .
Yes they still need a coach who trust young players and give those who deserves their minutes .it is combination between the 2
But it is easier to point fingers to one side only .some just blame the coach .some just will say no one is good enough and no one will assess each case neutrally

 

[BBZ8800]

That's where you are wrong. No youngster is "good enough to play". You have to give them minutes in order for them to improve. The only thing Bartra epitomises is the fact that a wonderful centre back talent turns into a rusty confidence less defender after not been given enough sufficient game time after performing well when he DID get a chance.
There is no place in the squad for Grimaldo but we have Adriano on the bench almost every game and then there's still Douglas. Are they better you think? No way. At least Grimaldo has the potential to become a good left back.

Every young player needs a coach that believes in them, Lucho simply doesn't believe and plays result-wise, short-term teams. You think Munir, Sandro, Adama, Halilovic, Samper, Grimaldo,... will all of a sudden "be good enough" when they are 25 years old? No, they need time. Time Tito, Tata and now Lucho don't give them. Pep gave talented youngsters a shot and then made decisions from there. Lucho doesn't play anyone and then people just say "it's because La Masia is overhyped".
Iniesta, Xavi, Victor Valdés, Pedro, Busi,... all got sufficient playing time to improve as a footballer, to raise their game that extra level from being a talent to being a pro. Was Sergio Busquets "good enough" when he benched arguably the best defensive midfielder at the time Yaya Touré? Again, no. He played one season as a pro in the fourth division. If we would have this situation now people would say "What's the point in benching Touré? The man is awesome. It's normal that Samper isn't good enough to replace him."

Lucho saying that there's nothing better than seeing players from La Masia playing for the first team and actually handling them well are two different things. Him totally neglecting the youth set-up is the only thing I dislike about him.

Your reply makes sense only if you assume that Halilovic, Adama, Grimaldo have the same potential as Xavi, Iniesta, Busi, Pedro etc.

As others replied on other topics, a talent will come through all problems, no matter what.
Xavi is Xavi, and no matter how dumb a coach is, Xavi will eventually succeed.

About current youngsters, imo, they are extremely average.
If Lucho doesn't play them, that is because they are not good enough (ever) for Barca's level.

About giving chances to see how a player will turn out, what?
We would have to give chances in this Season to Grimaldo, Samper, Munir, Sandro, Bartra, Roberto, Adama etc, just to see how will they develop and to be sure that we won't lose one talent?

There is a balance between short term results and between long term planning.
Ter Stegen was 22 last Season, Rafinha was 21.
They played a lot. Even Munir had more chances than Pedro in the first months.

Ter Stegen took his chance, Rafinha also.
Munir disappointed and didn't get chances later.

I personally don't like this theory that our youngsters didn't turn into something because they weren't given chances.
Again, from the start you are assuming that they are golden and all they need is minutes and a good coach.

Some, or more, dozens of La Masia products are not good enough for Barca.
No matter if you give them 5 matches in Barca or 105 matches.

Our youngsters who succeeded in Barca from 2000 till Pep, and guys who failed:
-- success:
-- Oleguer
-- Iniesta
-- Valdes

-- good players, but not good enough for Barca:
-- Gabri
-- Gk Reina
-- Thiago Motta
-- Bojan Krkic (Stoke)

-- good for La Liga teams:
-- Fernando Navarro (Sevilla)
-- Roberto Trashorras (Celta, Rayo)
-- Nano (Numancia)
-- Sergio Garcia (Espanyol)
-- Joan Verdu (Espanyol)
-- Damia (Betis, Osasuna)
-- Rodri (Hercules)
-- Pena (Valladolid)
-- Jordi Gomez (Wigan)
-- Javi Martos (Charleroi)
-- Paco Montanes (Zaragoza, Espanyol)
-- Andrea Orlandi (Swansea)
-- Gio Dos Santos (Villareal)

-- not good for Barca nor for 1st division teams:
-- Sergio Santamaria
-- David Sanchez
-- Oscar Lopez Hernandez
-- Ramon Ros
-- Javito
-- Pitu
-- Cristian Hidalgo
-- Ludovic Silvestre
-- Jesus Olmo
-- Ramon Maso

Those were all guys like current Adama, Halil or Grimaldo.
(Even though, people always think: no, those players weren't as good as our current youngsters.
Those guys had this or that problems. Current guys are much different, same story each season.)

So, in 8 Seasons from 2000/01 to 2007/08 when our golden (lucky) era came, we "tried" and gave chances to 31 youngsters who were promoted:
-- players who turned out to be Barca's starting 11 material were:
= Iniesta, Valdes and Oleguer

-- Barca's squad players:
= Bojan, Gabri, Motta, Reina
= so, we had 7 "playable" players in those 8 years (3 starters and 4 squad players)

-- plus, we created 13 players who were good enough for random 1st division teams (but not good enough for Barca)
-- and 10 players who later didn't even turn into a 1st division player, but played in the 2nd or 3rd division

-- so, before our golden/lucky era, we had 31 "prospects" in 00's:
-- and in 8 years we "created" only 3 starters

Now, most people, when they think of La Masia, think about Xavi, Iniesta, Pique, Busi, Pedro, Cesc, Thiago.
But except in Pep's era, La Masia was seriously NOTHING special for decades.
And further, those golden guys didn't succeed (only) because Pep gave them a chance, but because they were just insanely good.

Whenever I look at current boys, I try to "forget" that golden/lucky era and look at the current generation the same as on generations like 2001, 2003 or 2005.
Then guys like Halil, Adama, Munir, Sandro, Grimaldo etc don't look like Xavi-Iniesta or Busi, but more like a bunch of Pitu's, Javito's, Rodri's, Ramon Ros', Jesus Olmo's etc.

I am personally very annoyed lately with posts like:
Bartra is ruined because he didn't play.
Halil is a future RW at Barca and Adama is one of the best dribblers in the world.

I don't want to be a bad guy, but out of fun, I am willing to bet with anyone:
1. if Bartra leaves Barca, he will be a crap in any bigger team and he will eventually play in a team of Stoke's level
-- that is the best he can do
2. after one Season in Aston Villa, Adama will be a huge failure, or no matter what he will do, 99% of people will realize that he is not Barca's potential
3. Halil, no matter where he goes on a loan, more and more people will realize his flaws and that he is not good enough for Barca's standards

Anyway, I was hated 1 year ago for bad posts about Deulo/Bartra and some guys when the majority was still with those guys.
It seems that it is time to move on to some new players who are AGAIN just getting copy/pasted an insane amount of unrealistic hype/expectations/alibies for everything.

 

[khaled_a_d]

Our youngsters who succeeded in Barca from 2000 till Pep
-- success:
-- Oleguer
-- Iniesta
-- Valdes

 

[BBZ8800]

Sorry, I will slap myself.

I have no idea how I forgot Messi, lol.

This is so bad, feel free to ignore all my posts for the next 2 Months, haha.
I look at Messi as a symbol and an alien, that I actually forgot that he was a youngster and La Masia product :/

Sorry folks, sorry Messi

 

[Flavia]

[tw]631828845860139009[/tw]

He's the new Barça B captain, alongside Samper, Juste, Costa and Babunski.

 

[jamrock]

Galning gets it, everyone loves to jump up and say oh not everyone is the next messi and how overhyped la masia is, but its for the very fact that they aren't the next messi, why the need playing time to develop and its only then that we will see if they have the ability to make it at the highest level, not on the training pitch, no in preseason and not a 15 minutes every 15 games.

Someone like Valdez is the prefect example of what trust and playing time can lead to, Alba has well who we didn't think would make it.

The best way for a player to develop is playing time, and no manager since pep have given our young players that, and that's because there has been a shift in the philosophy of the club, from the top down.

last for everyone who is quick to rash and say how crap bartra is, I would like them to go back last season, WHEN HE GOT A RUN OF GAMES and was playing well. how all of barcaforum was singing is praises, but typical as it is for this forum, everyone just jumps on and off a bandwagon.

Bartra has all the ability in the world to be at least the first defender off the bench for barca, and not even that get its, because the club is shifting from its roots.

Will all player be the next messi? No, some might be the next (insert masia player who failed here), but unless we trust them and give them the time, we might me missing out on the next player who could contribute highly to our success.

 

[BBZ8800]

Galning gets it, everyone loves to jump up and say oh not everyone is the next messi and how overhyped la masia is, but its for the very fact that they aren't the next messi, why the need playing time to develop and its only then that we will see if they have the ability to make it at the highest level, not on the training pitch, no in preseason and not a 15 minutes every 15 games.

Someone like Valdez is the prefect example of what trust and playing time can lead to, Alba has well who we didn't think would make it.

The best way for a player to develop is playing time, and no manager since pep have given our young players that, and that's because there has been a shift in the philosophy of the club, from the top down.

last for everyone who is quick to rash and say how crap bartra is, I would like them to go back last season, WHEN HE GOT A RUN OF GAMES and was playing well. how all of barcaforum was singing is praises, but typical as it is for this forum, everyone just jumps on and off a bandwagon.

Bartra has all the ability in the world to be at least the first defender off the bench for barca, and not even that get its, because the club is shifting from its roots.

Will all player be the next messi? No, some might be the next (insert masia player who failed here), but unless we trust them and give them the time, we might me missing out on the next player who could contribute highly to our success.

If we give chances to 5-8 guys with potential each season=we won't miss on a talent.
If we give chances to 5-8 guys with potential each Season=we won't win a treble.

You can't have both a good team for winning a Champions league, good squad players who will play in Cup and in weaker matches, a good chemistry between starting 11 and squad players and on top of that 5-8 youngsters.
You don't have enough of time to play ALL those players, and you don't have enough of time to build a chemistry between:
1. starting 11
2. starting 11 and some rotation players when they enter like Rafinha, Roberto, Pedro, Mathieu, Vermaelen, Bartra, Mats, Adriano (to make them happy, to get the chemistry and to raise their match fitness, form and automatism)
3. and then on top of that time to test even youngsters in the decent amount of matches

You will both:
1. lose some important La liga points during these experiments (and what if those youngsters turn out to be a new Cuenca, Montoya, Jeffren etc, so you have both lost La liga, Champions league, Messi's prime years and you haven't created a new gem but a bunch of Jeffren's and Cuenca's?)
2. lose Messi's prime years and our best CHANCE to win CL trophies which we will have EVER in a whole history of football
3. lose chemistry between first team players/squad players with too many rotations
Plus:
-- you don't need A-team (ok, you need some) matches to actually see which players are that good
-- players DO train and play matches on training grounds all the time
-- if someone is a crap or average every day on trainings, he won't suddenly become a goat in 2-3 matches
-- also, if someone is a goat like Messi, that is pretty visible with his every touch with a ball and with every training (I remember when Messi was 16-17 years old and when there were first clips of his training ground-magic on youtube. Lol, after 10 seconds of any video, people could see that the guy is an alien)

So, my point is, Bartra surely don't play like Puyol on trainings.
He is 99% the same as in the current matches.

Some of you are overestimating that power/importance of actually playing some minutes.
The same as Khaled said, you need to earn that chance with your potential/skills on trainings and in a Bteam.
Barca's Ateam is not a testing place for good youngsters...

Our coaches, scouts and sporting directors live with those youngsters for years.
I am pretty sure that not ALL of our staff are idiots and that more or less, they surely know what is the potential and a personal plateau both for Munir, Sandro, Grimaldo, Halilovic, Adama and everyone.

Reading some posts, it sounds as if our coaching/scouting staff is consisted of 1 or 2 guys who are more or less retarded, and how are we more or less losing future Messi's year after year because these 2 guys don't understand football.

Barca currently has around 40 scouts and 24 coaches of youth teams.
If a new Messi is there, someone will surely spot him, don't worry.
On the other hand, if all these coaches worked with Bartra, and if all Ateam coaches never pick him as the first choice, there MUST be a bigger reason.

Not getting enough of playing time is NOT the reason why he failed.
Ok, to some extent.
But some of you are way underestimating player's personal potential and his plateau.

 

[khaled_a_d]

last for everyone who is quick to rash and say how crap bartra is, I would like them to go back last season, WHEN HE GOT A RUN OF GAMES and was playing well. how all of barcaforum was singing is praises, but typical as it is for this forum, everyone just jumps on and off a bandwagon.

Bartra has all the ability in the world to be at least the first defender off the bench for barca, and not even that get its, because the club is shifting from its roots.

People were singing praise on Bartra after the 2 games against Bayern 2 years ago when he was rubbish too .those who want someone to succeed will always praise players most of the time and vice versa
He has improved .playing time surely can make players improve specially with gr8 work ethic .but in Barca we need to be picky .not everyone prospect will get playing time .team can't afford that tbh .Unless we are talking about Messi level of talent

Sorry, I will slap myself.

I have no idea how I forgot Messi, lol.

This is so bad, feel free to ignore all my posts for the next 2 Months, haha.
I look at Messi as a symbol and an alien, that I actually forgot that he was a youngster and La Masia product :/

Sorry folks, sorry Messi

That was hilarious

 

[jamrock]

Nothing substitutes actually playing time in aa players development and in determining if a player is good enough, and given that thisnis barcelona who have at the very least 10 dead rubber games every season, where the result is a given sometimes by then 30th minute.

There is amble opportunities to give players aa chance to prove themselves where it actually matters, man opportunities to give a young player a 20-30 minutes, to see his weaknesses in a competitive game and work on it, all without sacrificing a single point in LA liga, our chances to win the copa or our chances to get out of the group stages of the CL.

How did we know that rafinha had potential? Pep gave him and many others from the b team q chance to play in a few real games and her shined, th others did not.

How did we know thiago had WC potential at the highest levels, pep gave him that Chance.

How do we know bartra has he ability to be at the very least our first option off the bench?, he showed that he could when giving the chance to build a rhythm.

So please spare we the, if we give youngsters a chance it will be to the detrentment of our on the field success. Because no one is saying start them against real Madrid.

Someone like samper is good enuff to play competitive minutes against the lower half of LA liga teams without it affecting the result in most instances, and on the odd occasion it does, these are the sacrifices we make when trying to develop talent.

PS please spear us a bunch of stats stating how if we had played x player in some game, against a lower team, how it could have turnee out bad, because blah blah blah.

 

[BBZ8800]

So please spare we the, if we give youngsters a chance it will be to the detrentment of our on the field success. Because no one is saying start them against real Madrid.

Someone like samper is good enuff to play competitive minutes against the lower half of LA liga teams without it affecting the result in most instances, and on the odd occasion it does, these are the sacrifices we make when trying to develop talent.

PS please spear us a bunch of stats stating how if we had played x player in some game, against a lower team, how it could have turnee out bad, because blah blah blah.

You are in love with younger players, no problem.

Anyway, a few lost points meant winning or NOT winning La liga in the last 2 Seasons.

I am personally not interested, as a fan, to lose La liga, because we will find out whether Adama, Halilovic, Grimaldo or someone is good enough.
I would like to win La liga every year, and if they are good enough, they will earn their opportunity in some other way.

Also, you are mentioning only positive examples, like Rafinha and Thiago.
So, you would GIVE 5-10 chances to younger players to see how will they play with the first team.

Ok, but then, why giving chances only to Munir, Sandro, Grimaldo, Adama, Samper etc?
Why not give chances to all 20 players from B team in the first team?
So, why give only 5-10 matches to Samper?
Why not give 5-10 matches to Babunski, Kaptoum, Bicho, Gumbau...?
(If you get my point?)

So, you say that we should give 5-10 chances to Samper, Grimaldo, Adama, Halil to see if they are good enough.
I am saying, then we should give 5-10 chances to ALL players. Who knows, maybe Bicho and Kaptoum will play like Goats suddenly in the A-team.

But then, if you give 5-10 matches to 10-20 younger players, you won't win La liga and Champions league.

Now, you will maybe reply: "But we should give chances only to best talents, and not to 20 players".
I will reply then: "Ok. That is exactly what the board and a staff is doing. They are picking 2-3-5 players with the highest potential out of 30 players, and these guys get some chances."

Players should earn their chances.
If they are good, someone will see THAT AWESOME talent on training grounds, Bteam or in a preseason.
They won't suddenly explode out of nowhere in 10 matches with the first team.

** Gumbau was a crap with Ateam.
Do you know why?
= because he is a crap since always, even in a Bteam
-- you don't need to give him 10 La liga matches to figure out that he is a crap for Barca's midfield standards

 

[jamrock]

No i don't get it, because your point is redundant. I only highlighted the positives to show you need to give players chances, but with those positives pep also have crap players chances to prove themselves and the cream rose to the top, but you won't know who is who purely based on training,you to throw them in the deep end and see what happens. Because at the end of the day barcelona plays more than enuff games where the result is a foregone conclusion before even a ball is kicked, to gives these players opportunities.

As it relates to winning LA liga, I would gladly lose 1 league title, if it means it helped us discover the next Valdez,puyol or whomever.

But I get that alot if barca fans these days are all about winning at any cost.

 

[jamrock]

At the end of the day, I guess fans like myself have to accept that not every coach insecure in themself enough to throw players in and see what happens, like a pep and van gaal.

Some just want to win.