Alexis Sanchez

[Semi-Neutral]

I agree; there is nothing wrong with having your best player save you. Van Persie has already saved United a bunch of times, Drogba saved Chelsea many times, as did CR7, and so on and so forth. To me, it doesn't matter if our defenders score and forwards don't, or our forwards do and defenders don't; so long as we score, does it make that much of a difference?

 

[footyfan]

I think only the 2nd case there is an example of "Messi dependency" being a big concern.

You expect your best player to rescue you sometimes; it shouldn't be concerning that that happens. EVERY team will need rescuing sometimes, and their best player is most likely to be the one to do it. It is only concerning if you can't win when the team is on form but your best player is off. That indicates that your results will solely depend on whether your best player is on or not, which is the definition of dependence.

I think both cases 1 and 2 should fall under Messi-dependency. While it is normal to depend on your best players in some games, it is still called dependency. Think of Maradona and WC86 for example. When a team actively looks towards only 1 player to create chances and score goals when things are going wrong(like Barca last year), it's definitely called being dependent. It's not a bad thing, it's just something that we have to be careful with.

That's sorta besides the point though. You yourself acknowledge that there were "quite a few games" that Barca won where the team played well and Messi was off. You list 3 draws and 1 loss that occurred when Messi was off and the team played well. How dependent are they on Messi if they typically win if they play well and he's off (with an occasional draw and just one loss)? Seems to me that usually being able to win even if your best player is off as long as the rest of the team isn't proves a lack of dependency. If a team can typically overcome the fact that their talisman is off, I see that as a good thing. Of course, sometimes a team can play well and not win because their main goalscorer is quite wasteful in front of goal. That happens all the time in football. But if that sort of thing doesn't normally sink the team, then they are not dependent.

I should have been more specific.

Let me clarify - Messi being off still means he creates more chances than most elite players or scores a couple of goals. This was especially true last year and relates to the 3rd case I was talking about. A few of the games I had in mind where both Zaragoza games, Levante home, Bilbao home, Betis home, Racing away - in all of them, Messi scores at least 1 (mostly two) and usually has 1 assist. "Quite a few" might have been the wrong phrase to use, because looking back, Messi played well in an incredible number of matches. He got 24 MOTM in 37 games played.

Then there are games when everything goes wrong for him - like Chelsea both ties, Espanyol away, Getafe away, Madrid home, Osasuna away (although we lost that due to shambolic defending more than anything else). It's not a co-incidence that everytime this happens, we drop points. And it's not like we don't create chances in those games - we do - but they're not taken clinically, both by Messi and the other players.

Sure, in absolute terms, they might not be a lot of points, but in relation to how it affected the title race last year, they were pretty significant. Maybe I am overreacting - because after all, Madrid had a record breaking season last year. We finished 9! points behind Madrid yet ended up on 91 points which would've been enough to win the league in at least 90% of the years in Spanish La Liga history.

PS: In the Sevilla or Chelsea games, we spurned a lot of chances (not just Messi). It shouldn't have had to come down to a penalty in the 97th minute (Sevilla) or again a missed penalty (Chelsea).

 

[footyfan]

I agree; there is nothing wrong with having your best player save you. Van Persie has already saved United a bunch of times, Drogba saved Chelsea many times, as did CR7, and so on and so forth. To me, it doesn't matter if our defenders score and forwards don't, or our forwards do and defenders don't; so long as we score, does it make that much of a difference?

Yes it does. Because in the future, there is no guarantee that the defenders will be able to put themselves in such a position to score or convert the chances they get. Whereas with a forward line, you can expect that to happen. So if your forward line is not in good form - and at a crucial moment, they either miss openings due to poor runs/awareness or they miss chances because they're not in form - you have a problem.

Besides, having your defenders in such forward positions for most of the game automatically means we are more vulnerable to counters at the back. Although, Barca deal with this perfectly well a lot of the time, the probability of a counter being successful obviiously is higher.

 

[Cule4life]

I agree; there is nothing wrong with having your best player save you. Van Persie has already saved United a bunch of times, Drogba saved Chelsea many times, as did CR7, and so on and so forth. To me, it doesn't matter if our defenders score and forwards don't, or our forwards do and defenders don't; so long as we score, does it make that much of a difference?

What happens if Messi is triple marked? Who will get the goals? Sanchez? Pedro?(Villa will warm the bench as usual ) We cant rely on players like Adriano or Busi to come up everytime. We dont want another Celtic or Chelsea.
Prevention is always better than cure. Just because a problem hasn't occured yet doesn't mean we should disregard it, not at the highest level of football where a small mistake can be the difference between glory and Heartbreak

 

[JonM]

What happens if Messi is triple marked? Who will get the goals? Sanchez? Pedro?(Villa will warm the bench as usual ) We cant rely on players like Adriano or Busi to come up everytime. We dont want another Celtic or Chelsea.
Prevention is always better than cure. Just because a problem hasn't occured yet doesn't mean we should disregard it, not at the highest level of football where a small mistake can be the difference between glory and Heartbreak

We had many chances to beat both Celtic and Chelsea and probably would have won 7 or 8 times out of 10. In the end, it came down to a few inches here and there, some bad luck and a few mistakes. Just because we ended up losing that day doesn't mean we have to change the team or the way we play.

 

[Paganinisrvnge]

If at least 1 or 2 players not named Messi score once every 3 or 4 matches(just enough to let people know they can score somewhat regularly) then there won't be the issue of "What if Messi is triple marked?" He will be marked heavily in the CL. That is a fact. He also will still perform at a very high level. However, if someone else can score then it takes some pressure off of Messi. It would be great if Iniesta, Xavi, Alba, Adriano, etc. score but none of those score with real consistency and it's not their job to. Is it too damn hard to ask our non-Messi forwards to score at least once every couple matches?

 

[lessthanjake]

I think both cases 1 and 2 should fall under Messi-dependency. While it is normal to depend on your best players in some games, it is still called dependency. Think of Maradona and WC86 for example. When a team actively looks towards only 1 player to create chances and score goals when things are going wrong(like Barca last year), it's definitely called being dependent. It's not a bad thing, it's just something that we have to be careful with.



I should have been more specific.

Let me clarify - Messi being off still means he creates more chances than most elite players or scores a couple of goals. This was especially true last year and relates to the 3rd case I was talking about. A few of the games I had in mind where both Zaragoza games, Levante home, Bilbao home, Betis home, Racing away - in all of them, Messi scores at least 1 (mostly two) and usually has 1 assist. "Quite a few" might have been the wrong phrase to use, because looking back, Messi played well in an incredible number of matches. He got 24 MOTM in 37 games played.

Then there are games when everything goes wrong for him - like Chelsea both ties, Espanyol away, Getafe away, Madrid home, Osasuna away (although we lost that due to shambolic defending more than anything else). It's not a co-incidence that everytime this happens, we drop points. And it's not like we don't create chances in those games - we do - but they're not taken clinically, both by Messi and the other players.

Sure, in absolute terms, they might not be a lot of points, but in relation to how it affected the title race last year, they were pretty significant. Maybe I am overreacting - because after all, Madrid had a record breaking season last year. We finished 9! points behind Madrid yet ended up on 91 points which would've been enough to win the league in at least 90% of the years in Spanish La Liga history.

PS: In the Sevilla or Chelsea games, we spurned a lot of chances (not just Messi). It shouldn't have had to come down to a penalty in the 97th minute (Sevilla) or again a missed penalty (Chelsea).

I understand why having your best player rescue you demonstrates "dependency" but that's why I said I didn't consider it dependency that should be a "big concern." The team will have below average matches; every team does. Having Messi rescue the team when this happens is not a problem, it's a luxury. It is a big concern when the team can play well but still lose because Messi is off. ANY player can be off sometimes, and we want a team that can "rescue" Messi, in a way, when that happens. If we don't have that, then our results will entirely track Messi's form, which is worrying.

As for the rest of your post: I do understand what you're saying. Your point is that when things REALLY go wrong for Messi, Barca had no chance. And maybe you have a point. I tend to think that the team just was in bad form during most of those matches, though, and could've won on most other days, even if Messi were still playing badly. If the team is in bad form AND Messi is in bad form, then of course the results are bad! Messi tends to look even more off when the rest of the team is off because defenses are able to mark him even tighter since the rest of the team isn't functioning that well. I think that's largely why the results are so bad in matches where Messi looks REALLY off.

With that said, though, I can acknowledge that the system is very Messi-centric. In the sense that the system is designed to create chances for Messi the vast majority of the time, if he is incredibly wasteful in front of goal, then it's real hard for the team to score because Messi will have wasted the vast majority of the team's total chances. So yeah, they are somewhat dependent on Messi not wasting chances. However, EVERY team is dependent on their strikers not wasting chances, and I would argue that it is more likely for any front two/three in the world to be really wasteful in a match than it is for Messi himself to be really wasteful. He's very consistent.

I was talking about more than just goals though. The team gives their chances to Messi. He can convert 1 or 2 of the chances he was given and still have had a so-so match. The team is certainly not dependent on Messi having a fantastic match in all ways in order to do well. They MAY be a bit dependent on him not wasting all the chances they give him, but again, EVERY team is dependent on their strikers not being wasteful. I'd rather be dependent on Messi not to waste chances than be dependent on any other striker or set of strikers.

 

[kostasgtc]

What happens if Messi is triple marked? Who will get the goals? Sanchez? Pedro?(Villa will warm the bench as usual ) We cant rely on players like Adriano or Busi to come up everytime. We dont want another Celtic or Chelsea.
Prevention is always better than cure. Just because a problem hasn't occured yet doesn't mean we should disregard it, not at the highest level of football where a small mistake can be the difference between glory and Heartbreak

maybe when Messi is triple marked sanchez ,pedro or villa will come closer to the posts and starting to score.

 

[misterplatin]

Our Shots per game on average this season is about 13-14 spg .Messi on avg. has about 5 spg out of that . The remaining 8 get distributed among the rest with Pedro and Alexis getting less than 2spg each. We are not even among top 20 teams in ranking on SPG .While during Pep's time we used to be top 3 all the time .That was our strength.That is the problem.

 

[Sultan]

Our Shots per game on average this season is about 13-14 spg .Messi on avg. has about 5 spg out of that . The remaining 8 get distributed among the rest with Pedro and Alexis getting less than 2spg each. We are not even among top 20 teams in ranking on SPG .While during Pep's time we used to be top 3 all the time .That was our strength.That is the problem.

Explain this then

FC Barcelona: Goals Scored
La Liga 11/12 Season
First 16 Games: 50 Goals

La Liga 12/13 Season
First 16 Games: 54 Goals

 

[misterplatin]

Explain this then

FC Barcelona: Goals Scored
La Liga 11/12 Season
First 16 Games: 50 Goals


La Liga 12/13 Season
First 16 Games: 54 Goals

To score goals you need to create the scoring chances(shots on goal).We have scored more goals because the goal-scorers have been more clinical than previous season.That does not take away the fact that we are creating less and compared to other top teams much less.My point explains Alexis and Pedro's lack of goals that is being debated so much.

 

[Corruption]

Happy Bday Alexis! (24)

 

[Sultan]

With that said, though, I can acknowledge that the system is very Messi-centric. In the sense that the system is designed to create chances for Messi the vast majority of the time, if he is incredibly wasteful in front of goal, then it's real hard for the team to score because Messi will have wasted the vast majority of the team's total chances. So yeah, they are somewhat dependent on Messi not wasting chances. However, EVERY team is dependent on their strikers not wasting chances, and I would argue that it is more likely for any front two/three in the world to be really wasteful in a match than it is for Messi himself to be really wasteful. He's very consistent.

+1

This is the reason why the coach is happy with both Pedro and Alexis, even tho they are not scoring themselves. I was checking whoscored.com the other day, don't know how accurate the stats on their site are, but it had Alexis with only 7 shots this season. Pedro didn't have that much more either. Even tho they are forwards that live off goals, their primary game-plan isn't to score, but to help Barca Win, i.e. score. As long as they are willing to work hard, pressing high, creating space, primarily for Messi, the Coach will be pleased with them.

The key for them is to not be wasteful when they do get their chances. It is a tough role to play, But if that is Tito's way, then you can understand why he is likely keen on keeping Alexis, for it is difficult to find forwards who are willing to play that role.

 

[kostasgtc]

To score goals you need to create the scoring chances(shots on goal).We have scored more goals because the goal-scorers have been more clinical than previous season.That does not take away the fact that we are creating less and compared to other top teams much less.My point explains Alexis and Pedro's lack of goals that is being debated so much.

i tend to agree despite the numpers say the opposite.if i want to go futher i would say that this may happen becauss we are much more carefull in defence this year despite again the numpers say the opposite

 

[kostasgtc]

+1

this is the reason why the coach is happy with both pedro and alexis, even tho they are not scoring themselves. I was checking whoscored.com the other day, don't know how accurate the stats on their site are, but it had alexis with only 7 shots this season. Pedro didn't have that much more either. Even tho they are forwards that live off goals, their primary game-plan isn't to score, but to help barca win, i.e. Score. As long as they are willing to work hard, pressing high, creating space, primarily for messi, the coach will be pleased with them.

The key for them is to not be wasteful when they do get their chances. It is a tough role to play, but if that is tito's way, then you can understand why he is likely keen on keeping alexis, for it is difficult to find forwards who are willing to play that role.

this at last.bravo mate