André Gomes

Ghostmaster

Danger Ahead
Until the tactics change, it is unreasonable to blame players for not doing something that the roles they play in don't allow them to do. Iniesta and Busquets themselves are way less creative than in the past, because MSN have taken over their role, especially Messi and Neymar, who are the main creators of the team by far. Neymar is even more of a playmaker than scorer now.

I'm not conviced we need to try to play like when we had those players you named, because those players are not here anymore, and there is no one like them available for us to sign.

We could find creative midfielder if we wanted to, new players emerging all the time, Thomas Lemar, Fabinho, Christian Eriksen, Coutinho etc. But since Lucho refuses to use midfield for anything more than your mentioned function " providing the balls to MSN" when I guess there is no need to search for these players.
 

serghei

Senior Member
We could find creative midfielder if we wanted to, new players emerging all the time, Thomas Lemar, Fabinho, Christian Eriksen, Coutinho etc. But since Lucho refuses to use midfield for anything more than your mentioned function " providing the balls to MSN" when I guess there is no need to search for these players.

You have to have a balance. Playing Messi for example in the RW made us look for a midfielder who is better off the ball than on the ball, like Rakitic. Had we looked for a playmaker instead of Rakitic, Messi's lack of workrate and Alves' offensive inclination would have been a problem. They weren't a problem because we had workhorse Rakitic to cover spaces with discipline and strenght. Rakitic was able to cover for both Messi, and Alves, eating away his time on the ball, but making sure that off the ball he made the difference.
 
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FlaFCB

Guest
..........?? I never once mentioned Pep's Barca.. I don't understand this reply at all.

That's because for serghei, if you criticize the current state of the midfield, it's because you're comparing it to Pep's Barça :D

Nevermind the midfield used to work during licho's first year.
 

serghei

Senior Member
..........?? I never once mentioned Pep's Barca.. I don't understand this reply at all.

Because during Pep's Barcelona the midfield was the creative center of the team. And people, when they say Barca DNA, or Barca style, refer to Guardiola nowadays.

1) Pep system, the first part (with Messi RW, Eto'o CF, and Henry LW), had the midfield at it's core. The midfielders (Xaviesta + Busi) were in charge of constructing the play. The passing network from midfield (1-2s, first touch passing, pass and move, triangles etc.) had the purpose of a) keeping possession, and b) playing the front trio mostly when there was an opportunity for a great pass, not just anyhow, but playing them in space, in dangerous positions. That is why the playmaking came from our midfielders. Iniesta and Xavi had very high assists or pre-assists numbers. Either the final pass, or the pass before the final pass came from them. Basically our midfield passed and passed and passed and moved the ball until it found our attacking players in good positions (and our attacking players made runs, or switched positions, trying to make themselves available for a pass, while also staying in their place to maintain width and stretch the opposition). Very important, when our attackers where not in a position to receive a great pass, the midfield would not release the ball, but would re-do the cycle of passing until that space was created.

2) Lucho system. This is where it changes a lot. We do not keep MSN as only targets in the last 3rd of the pitch, as attacking players you activate from midfield playmaking. We use MSN as targets from all areas, including direct balls from defence to our trio, consiering that they can make the difference individually, even in positions where they have to overturn a numerical advantage in favour of the defending team. The main job of the midfield is to play the ball to Messi, Neymar and Suarez, and not just in good positions, but everytime is possible. This is why the media has been writing about Iniesta in the last years being more of a water carrier in this team. And this is why Iniesta was at his best last season when Messi didn't play vs Madrid, on Bernabeu, probably his best game in the last 2-3 years. Because he was allowed to exercise his creative role more, in the absence of the team's no1 creative force - Messi. When all of Messi, Neymar, and Suarez are on the field, they are used not only as great attacking players, but as great playmakers too, being given ball to feet much more than during Pep, when Barca used to release the ball to them in a more selective way. And who selected which balls got to connect with our trio, and which balls were recirculated in midfield? The masters Xavi, Iniesta, and Busquets. These 3 had the creative licensce to judge the situation and decide when the pass to our trio was made, and when the play would go into another passing cycle. They weren't forced to follow very strict patterns, they decided on their own when to pass and to which player, based on the window of opportunity being there or not.

But why do we use MSN so extensively? Because they are superplayers, and because it is handy. The result for this, is that MSN, having to do both the creation part, and the attacking (finishing) part, is draining them so much in possession that they either get too tired late in the season (2015-16 problem), or they do very little off the ball in order to rest during the game. And if we allow them to rest off the ball, and not make them defend, we need players who are less playmakers, and more hard workers. Hence why we signed Rakitic over Kroos.
 
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Vilarrubi

New member
Because during Pep's Barcelona the midfield was the creative center of the team. And people, when they say Barca DNA, or Barca style, refer to Guardiola nowadays.

1) Pep system, the first part (with Messi RW, Eto'o CF, and Henry LW), had the midfield at it's core. The midfielders (Xaviesta + Busi) were in charge of constructing the play. The passing network from midfield (1-2s, first touch passing, pass and move, triangles etc.) had the purpose of a) keeping possession, and b) playing the front trio only when there was an opportunity for a great pass, not just anyhow, but playing them in space, in dangerous positions. That is why the playmaking came from our midfielders. Iniesta and Xavi had very high assists or pre-assists numbers. Either the final pass, or the pass before the final pass came from them. Basically our midfield passed and passed and passed and moved the ball until it found our attacking players in good positions (and our attacking players made runs, or switched positions, trying to make themselves available for a pass, while also staying in their place to maintain width and stretch the opposition). Very important, when our attackers where not in a position to receive a great pass, the midfield would not release the ball, but would re-do the cycle of passing until that space was created.

2) Lucho system. This is where it changes a lot. We do not keep MSN as only targets in the last 3rd of the pitch, as attacking players you activate from midfield playmaking. We use MSN as targets from all areas, including direct balls from defence to our trio, consiering that they can make the difference individually, even in positions where they have to overturn a numerical advantage in favour of the defending team. The main job of the midfield is to play the ball to Messi, Neymar and Suarez, and not just in good positions, but everytime is possible. This is why the media has been writing about Iniesta in the last years being more of a water carrier in this team. And this is why Iniesta was at his best last season when Messi didn't play vs Madrid, on Bernabeu, probably his best game in the last 2-3 years. Because he was allowed to exercise his creative role more, in the absence of the team's no1 creative force - Messi. When all of Messi, Neymar, and Suarez are on the field, they are used not only as great attacking players, but as great playmakers too. Because they are, and because it is handy. The result for this, was that MSN, having to do both the creation part, and the attacking (finishing) part, is draining them so much in possession that they either get too tired late in the season (2015-16 problem), or they do very little off the ball in order to rest during the game. And if we allow them to rest off the ball, and not make them defend, we need players who are less playmakers, and more hard workers. Hence why we signed Rakitic over Kroos.


No-one is denying the system has changed.. I don't think anyone on this forum would say we are the same as Pep's Barca but you still chose to bring that up. It has nothing to do with what people are saying here, they're not stupid. We can see it's changed.

But to suggest it's working right now is ridiculous, our midfield is dysfunctional.
 

serghei

Senior Member
No-one is denying the system has changed.. I don't think anyone on this forum would say we are the same as Pep's Barca but you still chose to bring that up. It has nothing to do with what people are saying here, they're not stupid. We can see it's changed.

But to suggest it's working right now is ridiculous, our midfield is dysfunctional.

It worked very well in 2014-15. Style was different, and worked like a charm. Also worked last season overall, since a double and some other trophies, including a CWC is a great achievement. This season looks like it will be the worst of the 3, but Lucho at Barcelona is a sucess, and quite a big one so far.
 
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FlaFCB

Guest
It worked very well in 2014-15. Style was different, and worked like a charm. Also worked last season overall, since a double and some other trophies, including a CWC is a great achievement. This season looks like it will be the worst of the 3, but Lucho at Barcelona is a sucess, and quite a big one so far.
Midfield setup was quite different in 14/15. Xavi's influence made sure of that. That's why it worked back then. It was still a functional midfield. Now it's very different. And the players brought in, like Gomes, can't play the crazy way licho wants. Thankfully he'll leave in the end of the season.
 

serghei

Senior Member
Midfield setup was quite different in 14/15. Xavi's influence made sure of that. That's why it worked back then. It was still a functional midfield. Now it's very different. And the players brought in, like Gomes, can't play the crazy way licho wants. Thankfully he'll leave in the end of the season.

I don't agree with that. It was the same tactic, except we had Alves and Messi stayed more on the right. Xavi was a part-time player that season, he didn't even play in the biggest games. The midfield was Iniesta - Busi - Rakitic. Same as now. MSN form was superior, that was the difference, and the impact of Alves which was consistent. Rakitic was more in form as well, probably because Alvessi activated in his zone and having two all time greats next to you always helps. But the tactics were about the same, minus that problem we have now in the right wing, which is hurting us big time.
 
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FlaFCB

Guest
I don't agree with that. It was the same tactic, except we had Alves and Messi stayed more on the right. Xavi was a part-time player that season, he didn't even play in the biggest games. The midfield was Iniesta - Busi - Rakitic. Same as now.

It was not the same tactic, not even close. Strange you think that. It was in the first months of that season, with midfielders wide and far away from each other. After the crisis, that setup changed completely. It surely seems now as if Xavi convinced licho. You can check the maps to see the average positions and see for yourself.

Midfield got more compact again, and it wasn't bypassed as it is now. That lasted a bit, until licho decided to revert to his initial setup, with wide midfielders far away from each other, and now to bypassing them completely. Cb's and gk are the play makers now. It really, really wasn't like that in 14/15
 

ThwiX

Best midfielder around
Other than that selfish Ronaldo moment where he decided to shoot instead of passing it to Leo for the tap-in, he was quite good in the 1st half.
 

God Serena

New member
Man, it's as if Gomes is better than any La Masia failure we've ever had, the way you see serghei defending him. I don't even think he's much better here than JDS was, honestly.
 

kilian

Senior Member
He was good today. Playing with confidence and doing things we want to see from our central midfielders. Hope to see more of that from him.
 

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