André Gomes

[Ghostmaster]

There must to be a huge fucking bias against him when people complain about him mistaking a lot of passes in the same match he achieved 98% pass success rate.

Honestly, I think we should all rethink a little bit about it because it's happening on other threads too.

Mats > people had the courage to say he was responsible for Ramos goal;

Gomes > people complaining about bad passes when he achieved 98% success rate;

Paco > people not even noticing he assisted Arda in a very decent play by his own.

And so goes on with other players, mainly Neymar.

I don't know what is causing it, but I am sure this is not good for the forum "health".

Food for thought, fellas.

Well, can you blame them, the guy reminds people of Fabregas

Seriously though, I personally have problem with Lucho regarding Gomes, I said it before and I say it again, if a guy needs a time to adapt, you don't play him in tough games like Atletico, Celta away, Valencia away, Sociadad away and most importantly you don't pair him with another similar type player(Rakitic) or winger who can't play in midfield(Arda).

 

[Messi983]

False for you - but logical for me...
But essentially one should understand this type of logic, the one that Enrique seems to forget:
Have a look at the last season, a successful one for Barca, even if at the European championship was a failure. Which classes played, who still consist the gala-XI's backbone:

Bravo - World Class
Alves - World Class
Pique - World Class
Mascherano - World Class
Alba - National Class
Rakitic - National Class
Busquets - World Class
Iniesta - World Class
Messi - World Class
Suarez - World Class
Neymar - World Class

I understand what you are saying but problem is no team can have 22 (or even let's say 15) world class players at the same time. First, it's not financially affordable and second, you can't keep them all happy. So a dropoff in quality when you go from your best XI to the bench is expected from any team in the world, including Barça.

7 out of those 9 world class players (I'd also argue that Alba is world class as he's top 5 LB IMO) you mentioned are still here and will most likely stay at least for the next 2-3 years except maybe Mascherano whose possible replacement Umtiti has shown the most from our new signings so far and should be able to fully take over his role whenever El Jefecito leaves or even before that. If Umtiti continues with his development he could also be considered as world class in 2-3 years as well.

I agree that in theory we should incorporate bench players to the first XI as you mentioned but you can't always do that. Yes, Lucho overrotates sometimes (like against Alaves) and we paid for his "experiments" but injuries and bad form of some key players didn't help us much either this season.

Anyway, if you look only at our best XI on the paper compared to last season then we have "only" 2 new starters in MATS (who already played a lot of games as a starter over the last two seasons) and Roberto. I think we should be able to compensate that dropoff in quality and especially experience going from Bravo and Alves to MATS and Roberto if all other players in our starting XI would perform on their usual world class level. Well, especially Busquets, Suarez and Neymar are far from that and Iniesta was injured.

So while I agree with you that Lucho's overrotations and him trying to incorporate 3, 4 or even all 5 (outfield) new signings to the team at the same time backfired to us in some games I also think that much bigger problem so far were poor performances of our world class players who are not playing at their expected level (or even close to that). You might disagree but I don't expect of players like Gomes or Denis Suarez who've been with the team for 4 months to save us singlehadedly in games where 7, 8 or more of our players underperform. That's where world class players are expected to step up. It doesn't help us if they are world class on paper and they've shown that in past seasons but they don't this season. Messi has been our saviour most of the time but even he's a human and has a right for bad day so he can't always save us. Suarez, Neymar, Busquets,... should start to play better if we want to win any titles this season. I'm far more concerned about their poor form so far than I'm because of inconsistency of our new signings and squad players like Rafinha or Arda.

Good thing is we are not even half way through the season and there is a lot of time to turn things around. But again, returning our key players to their best form is way more instrumental to our success this season than any new signing except maybe Umtiti. Yes, I expect all of them to improve during the season but they will be inconsistent in the meantime. But we can get away with some poor performances from them. On the other hand we absolutely won't win anything if Ney, Suarez, Busquets, Rakitić,.. won't find their best form in second half of the season.

 

[DennyCrane]

There must to be a huge fucking bias against him when people complain about him mistaking a lot of passes in the same match he achieved 98% pass success rate.

Honestly, I think we should all rethink a little bit about it because it's happening on other threads too.

Mats > people had the courage to say he was responsible for Ramos goal;

Gomes > people complaining about bad passes when he achieved 98% success rate;

Paco > people not even noticing he assisted Arda in a very decent play by his own.

And so goes on with other players, mainly Neymar.

I don't know what is causing it, but I am sure this is not good for the forum "health".

Food for thought, fellas.

The premise, that the discussion of players is entirely objective, is an illusion. Because everyone's judgement of players and of people altogether is at some point irrational and people aren't necessarily aware of this. In fact, it's very easy to rationalize your anger towards a player via nitpicking or pointing towards selective statistics to underline the argument. And sometimes, there are rational points contained in that argument which can then be used as a basis for a debate. Sometimes, and this is where it becomes bad, is when people come up with weird sham arguments and fallacies galore to justify their feelings towards a player, which other members then try to debunk to no avail, as the hate train will never come to a halt. And at some point, everyone's guilty of this. But it's also important to point out that people who point out flaws or criticize players shouldn't be labled as haters to shut them up, which also, most ironically, mostly happens in the Neymar and Messi threads.

So, if I for example think that S. Roberto looks weirdly effeminate, and I do , it'd be very easy to go on a 1000 words rant instead on how his passing sucks and how he's not the RB Barca needs because X or "OMG look at that random stat I just pulled up" to rationalize the fact that I don't like to look at him. Same for Neymar's public persona, and so on.

So maybe, we should have a dedicated thread ala "Confessions: What I always thought about player X but were afraid to say" , as some form of forum catharsis, for the times you just want to vent, you know.

 

[Potroh]

I understand what you are saying but problem is no team can have 22 (or even let's say 15) world class players at the same time. First, it's not financially affordable and second, you can't keep them all happy. So a dropoff in quality when you go from your best XI to the bench is expected from any team in the world, including Barça.

I tend to agree, but it is NOT needed to have 15-22 world class players simultaneously.
The coach is there for a certain reason, even if he himself will never understand the game like some world class players do, which seems to be a problem.
The method is ancient and simple once again, namely that he might experiment but in that case he should secretly and even unconsciously give up one of the aims, be it the Liga, or the cup. Then he may experiment, but the well lubricated system will definitely suffer.

The system suffers:
- if there's no right back who is outstanding or at least good in defense
- if the world classes have to play differently due to the experimentation flow
- if injuries force him but he decides to experiment instead of substituting
- and obviously if the key players are out of form

Some of the world classes will equally suffer, because it is them who theoretically need to carry the excess weight on their shoulders. But they cannot always do it if out of form + the known system is turned upside down.
World classes aren't machines, all of them have occasional bad periods. It's natural. But the coach is there to know what to do.

For a world class being out of form is mainly due to psychological reasons, often fatigue plays the role of devil, but it's the coach who should know what's happening to him, because he is to judge the motivation and physical state of the guy. He can see all that in the greenroom or during practices. If he doesn't, then he does something wrong.

And there comes the mythical question of luck, which also plays a big role obviously.
He (the coach) shouldn't be superstitious but at the same time shouldn't be predictable either. Like Lucho brought in Arda, perhaps likes him to some extent, but he should have known from his own pragmatic results that substituting him to different positions will not result wonders. But he does that and when Arda scores a hattrick, he brings his self-complacence and says: I told you, he is great, he just needs time and chances to show it up! No, he is NOT great, but can have nice days or moments.
And that's the luck-factor in play.
Because the best coach should NOT allow the circumstances, luck or the will of the deathless Gods to lead him, the good coach (or generalissimo) must influence the game himself by his carefully thought-out and timely decisions.
The bad coach gives hope that the talented but hardly above average player of his will fish out a good performance somehow, but if this hope is his best weapon, it means he is not in command...

I'd also argue that Alba is world class as he's top 5 LB IMO you mentioned are still here and will most likely stay at least for the next 2-3 years except maybe Mascherano whose possible replacement Umtiti has shown the most from our new signings so far and should be able to fully take over his role whenever El Jefecito leaves or even before that. If Umtiti continues with his development he could also be considered as world class in 2-3 years as well.

I marked Alba as National Class and not WC but I agree with you.
Umtiti is a good example and he is the only one so far.
But how about Arda? Will he take Neymar's place? Can he be amalgamated into the team at 30? What does he want to do with him on the long run? Nothing... just play him occasionally and HOPE he has a nice day. That's the dependence on mere luck...

Same with Alcacer. Deep inside the coach is deadly dissatisfied with him but openly he praises his good passes (2 out of 16) and his single assist so far. Childish... Now this is bad coaching, trying to persuade the public that the guy only needs time and trust, whereas he knows as well as we do that he is a hopeless case in Barca. Not his style and not his ground, even if a Messi plays beside him. But he will never ever understand Messi, simply because he belongs to a different species or class.
Neymar will always understand Messi because he is the same class, so does Suarez, who always understands him, just occasionally too nervous, heavy and clumsy to do what needs to be done.

 

[FlaFCB]

The premise, that the discussion of players is entirely objective, is an illusion. Because everyone's judgement of players and of people altogether is at some point irrational and people aren't necessarily aware of this. In fact, it's very easy to rationalize your anger towards a player via nitpicking or pointing towards selective statistics to underline the argument. And sometimes, there are rational points contained in that argument which can then be used as a basis for a debate. Sometimes, and this is where it becomes bad, is when people come up with weird sham arguments and fallacies galore to justify their feelings towards a player, which other members then try to debunk to no avail, as the hate train will never come to a halt. And at some point, everyone's guilty of this. But it's also important to point out that people who point out flaws or criticize players shouldn't be labled as haters to shut them up, which also, most ironically, mostly happens in the Neymar and Messi threads.

Or as "fanboys" when they try to defend them vs those shams and fallacies

So, if I for example think that S. Roberto looks weirdly effeminate, and I do , it'd be very easy to go on a 1000 words rant instead on how his passing sucks and how he's not the RB Barca needs because X or "OMG look at that random stat I just pulled up" to rationalize the fact that I don't like to look at him. Same for Neymar's public persona, and so on.

So maybe, we should have a dedicated thread ala "Confessions: What I always thought about player X but were afraid to say" , as some form of forum catharsis, for the times you just want to vent, you know.

That's a good idea.

 

[evilhita666]

That would be hilarious... Let's lock the normal player thread for 24 hours after a match, and during that time people can only post in the "confessions" thread...

 

[Messi983]

But how about Arda? Will he take Neymar's place? Can he be amalgamated into the team at 30? What does he want to do with him on the long run? Nothing... just play him occasionally and HOPE he has a nice day. That's the dependence on mere luck...

Same with Alcacer. Deep inside the coach is deadly dissatisfied with him but openly he praises his good passes (2 out of 16) and his single assist so far. Childish... Now this is bad coaching, trying to persuade the public that the guy only needs time and trust, whereas he knows as well as we do that he is a hopeless case in Barca. Not his style and not his ground, even if a Messi plays beside him. But he will never ever understand Messi, simply because he belongs to a different species or class.
Neymar will always understand Messi because he is the same class, so does Suarez, who always understands him, just occasionally too nervous, heavy and clumsy to do what needs to be done.

Of course Arda won't take Neymar's place longterm (if and when Ney will leave we'll get a lot of money and just buy his replacement if we won't find someone before that) but he's good enough to replace him occasionally. That's not luck, he is good enough to do that. Of course he can have a bad day as any other player and if you think that anytime he played well as LM/LW this season we were just lucky that he had a good day then ok. I will gladly take that "luck" as I believe he'll continue to do well when he'll play LM/LW.

When they are both in good form, Neymar is no doubt a better player. But I think Arda in good form is at least as good if not better than Neymar in poor form so there is really not as much drop off between world class Neymar playing bad and national class (as you described him) Arda playing good. We've seen that in many games this season when Arda played as LW and has actually shown more than Neymar. Even some people who dislike Arda have admitted that.


And I really disagree about Paco. Would you prefer Lucho going Mourinho mode and start throwing own players under the bus? Any smart coach will defend his players in public and criticise (or better said told them what he really thinks about their game, what they have to improve,...) them in private. Yes, sometimes some sort of public announcement is needed to wake up/fire up the team but at that time you adress the whole team ("we need to do this and this better"). Negatively singling out players in public will make you loose the locker room sooner or later. There are rare cases in collective sports when coach criticising his player(s) had a positive effect. It's usually when there is a longterm relationship between the coach and player and coach knows that player will react positively on his critics. But that's not a case with a player who is with team for only 4 months and is still trying to find his place in team.

 

[Potroh]

But I think Arda in good form is at least as good if not better than Neymar in poor form so there is really not as much drop off between world class Neymar playing bad and national class (as you described him) Arda playing good. We've seen that in many games this season when Arda played as LW and has actually shown more than Neymar. Even some people who dislike Arda have admitted that.

Well, I tend to be a bit too theoretic here but we need to define the term "good form" in order to agree. I gather "good form" stands for a player who has been continuously playing in his post, has an undoubted and regular place in the team. We as spectators, then may judge his form, but in relation to the form and results of the entire team. Because in case the team plays bad, collectively, usually we tend to spread the "form factor" out to individual players, with a few exceptions rarely. (The coach watches him in training and has a different view).
Thus when an irregular player plays in a particular game or goes on as a substitute for xyz minutes, all I can see if he plays good or bad, but I hardly consider it to be a regular "form" as such.

To me the same stands for Arda, who played good games, bad games and even horrible games. And - just as you say - because he played at different positions, it's even harder to judge his form as such. Hence in my spectator eyes, Arda is a player with good and bad qualities, but not being a regular one at a regular position, he only has good and bad games, and that's what I named the "luck factor" - even for the coach, who obviously knows more about his day-to-day work, but can hardly be certain about what he is able to add or subtract in the xyz minutes he gets.

Would you prefer Lucho going Mourinho mode and start throwing own players under the bus? Any smart coach will defend his players in public and criticise (or better said told them what he really thinks about their game, what they have to improve,...) them in private. Yes, sometimes some sort of public announcement is needed to wake up/fire up the team but at that time you adress the whole team ("we need to do this and this better"). Negatively singling out players in public will make you loose the locker room sooner or later. There are rare cases in collective sports when coach criticising his player(s) had a positive effect. It's usually when there is a longterm relationship between the coach and player and coach knows that player will react positively on his critics. But that's not a case with a player who is with team for only 4 months and is still trying to find his place in team.

Yes, we unfortunately disagree here. A 35 million bucks attacker with just a dozen acceptable passes in four months is a failure and the coach does know that, regardless his (usually very simplified) verbal communication.
So his actually hiding his disappointment in public, which just deepens the gap between him and fans and spectators, who see the very same practical performances he sees.
It's nothing else but a postponement of the "outburst" which will definitely come if the player remains the same. But when the outburst comes and the poor player becomes a panhandled hopeless case, the entire unfortunate failure bounces back to the shoulders of the coach. That's why he has to be more balanced in matters like that, just as the "Vidal case" also shows his psychological incompetence...

 

[xXKonan]

Lucho on Gomes.

when asked if he could one day play in the Sergio Busquets role full-time, Lucho added: "Yes, in fact, when we put him there we understand he has the qualities to do it, later we will have to see with a number of games under his belt if it's his position. I think, however, that his best position is interior and that's where he can give the team the most, not just for how he works on the ball but for how he arrives [in the box] and the shot he has. He helped us as a pivot. I think in the end it's something that helps the players, to be able to feature in various positions, and of course the team, as I have more resources and more options."

http://www.sport-english.com/en/not...i-roberto-and-andre-gomes-versatility-5680212

 

[NorthernVictory]

Well, I tend to be a bit too theoretic here but we need to define the term "good form" in order to agree. I gather "good form" stands for a player who has been continuously playing in his post, has an undoubted and regular place in the team. We as spectators, then may judge his form, but in relation to the form and results of the entire team. Because in case the team plays bad, collectively, usually we tend to spread the "form factor" out to individual players, with a few exceptions rarely. (The coach watches him in training and has a different view).
Thus when an irregular player plays in a particular game or goes on as a substitute for xyz minutes, all I can see if he plays good or bad, but I hardly consider it to be a regular "form" as such.

To me the same stands for Arda, who played good games, bad games and even horrible games. And - just as you say - because he played at different positions, it's even harder to judge his form as such. Hence in my spectator eyes, Arda is a player with good and bad qualities, but not being a regular one at a regular position, he only has good and bad games, and that's what I named the "luck factor" - even for the coach, who obviously knows more about his day-to-day work, but can hardly be certain about what he is able to add or subtract in the xyz minutes he gets.



Yes, we unfortunately disagree here. A 35 million bucks attacker with just a dozen acceptable passes in four months is a failure and the coach does know that, regardless his (usually very simplified) verbal communication.
So his actually hiding his disappointment in public, which just deepens the gap between him and fans and spectators, who see the very same practical performances he sees.
It's nothing else but a postponement of the "outburst" which will definitely come if the player remains the same. But when the outburst comes and the poor player becomes a panhandled hopeless case, the entire unfortunate failure bounces back to the shoulders of the coach. That's why he has to be more balanced in matters like that, just as the "Vidal case" also shows his psychological incompetence...

This isn't a knock on you at all, but your posting style reminds me of BBZ a little bit. Just thought it was funny.

I agree with what you said though.

 

[Potroh]

This isn't a knock on you at all, but your posting style reminds me of BBZ a little bit. Just thought it was funny.
I agree with what you said though.

Okay, I just wish I knew what or who "BBZ" stands for, as I don't have the faintest idea unfortunately...

 

[God Serena]

Okay, I just wish I knew what or who "BBZ" stands for, as I don't have the faintest idea unfortunately...

BBZ is the best poster on this entire god damn internet.

 

[Ahmedd]

Lucho on Gomes.



http://www.sport-english.com/en/not...i-roberto-and-andre-gomes-versatility-5680212

It probably means that, if Gomes does well, this is the end for Rakitic.

 

[Potroh]

BBZ is the best poster on this entire god damn internet.

Ahhhhhhhh.... okay, thanks and sorry I'm uneducated...

 

[Devils]

Very good game today, he is really starting to make strides. Great stuff!