Andrés Iniesta

[jiopi]

Its hard to say he has been our best player when you have someone like Messi scoring an insane amount of goals. However, in terms of general play, Iniesta has been our best performer this season. People seem to think this season is a disaster due to the last two weeks but before then we were hugely impressive for a couple of months. During this period, Iniesta played perhaps the best football of his career, same with Busquets.

Goals are part of general play, and even if they weren't I fail to see how Iniesta has been better than Messi this season.

Iniesta - Messi in La Liga (OPTA)

Goals 2 - 39
SpG 12.5 - 3.6
Assists 13 - 9
Throughballs 11 - 10
Key Passes 31 - 36
Dribbles 52 - 102
Dispossessed 41 - 74
DpD 1.27 - 1.38
Fouled 36 - 65
Games 20 - 26
MoM (whoscored) 3 - 16
Rating 7.48 - 8.97
Points given by direct contribution 5 - 31

MoM (Barcaforum) 6 - 17

And that all being marked and crowded completely different level than Iniesta.

 

[Ursegor]

However, in terms of general play, Iniesta has been our best performer this season.

Agree with this.

 

[footyfan]

Iniesta (and Busquets) are the only ones who are playing to their max. level this season. Between Iniesta and Messi, it's difficult. If Iniesta was really the best, he wouldn't be losing the man of the match thread in barcaforum (which is definitely not as biased towards stats as say whoscored) by such a huge margin.

In 2013, he has definitely been the best in the team I feel.

 

[Irish_Cules]

Goals are part of general play, and even if they weren't I fail to see how Iniesta has been better than Messi this season.

Iniesta - Messi in La Liga (OPTA)

Goals 2 - 39
SpG 12.5 - 3.6
Assists 13 - 9
Throughballs 11 - 10
Key Passes 31 - 36
Dribbles 52 - 102
Dispossessed 41 - 74
DpD 1.27 - 1.38
Fouled 36 - 65
Games 20 - 26
MoM (whoscored) 3 - 16
Rating 7.48 - 8.97
Points given by direct contribution 5 - 31

MoM (Barcaforum) 6 - 17

And that all being marked and crowded completely different level than Iniesta.

As I said its hard to compare him with Messi because...well its Messi. Messi has been incredible but I don't think it has been his best season in terms of general play. He isn't playing with the same intensity and he gives the ball away a lot easier than in previous seasons. That being said, he is more ruthless then ever in his goalscoring and assists so it is hard to criticize him. I just think that out of everybody in the squad, Iniesta has been the player who has excited me the most this season. He has played with such consistency and grace and has been our most dangerous player in countless games. There have been many games where Messi has scored and provided great assists but hasn't been great for large portions of the game. Its a testament to his unbelievable talent that he can win a match with these moments of sheer genius. Iniesta cant do the things Messi does, but in those spells of matches where Messi hasn't been at his best Iniesta has been a constant threat to the opposition.

 

[Irish_Cules]

Iniesta (and Busquets) are the only ones who are playing to their max. level this season. Between Iniesta and Messi, it's difficult. If Iniesta was really the best, he wouldn't be losing the man of the match thread in barcaforum (which is definitely not as biased towards stats as say whoscored) by such a huge margin.

In 2013, he has definitely been the best in the team I feel.

Exactly. Iniesta and Busquets have progressed as players this seasons and are playing the best football of their career. Perhaps this stands out to us and we just take Messi for granted. Logically, Messi has been our best player this season but if I'm asked who has impressed me the most it has to be Iniesta.

 

[TornAndFrayed]

It's true that this season while progressing in goals scored messi's overall quality has not. And the past months have been rough on him, truth be told he's been pretty lucky to continue his scoring streak.

 

[Elite-BkD]

Iniesta has certainly been better than Messi and goals scored doesn't change a thing. How many times has Messi scored after Iniesta had spent the match doing a much better job of helping the opposition along toward mental/physical exhaustion and a feeling of hopelessness? The best description I've ever read of Iniesta is that it's down to the authority with which he plays. He always feels superior and it shows in his performance, even when most/all of his teammates are plainly rattled, and Messi simply is not on his level in this regard. Only Xavi and Puyol ever were.

Teams concede goals, and teams score them. When Messi has the last touch to put the ball in the net, even after outstanding athletic plays, it has been a TEAM EFFORT. Very rarely (or never, really) can this be disregarded, and Iniesta has been helping the team to succeed at a level Messi has not matched this season.

 

[Barcaman]

My general feeling is that Iniesta is one of the few of our players that managed to put in solid performances in all of our recent defeats.
For me, this is a true measure of his brilliance.

 

[jiopi]

As I said its hard to compare him with Messi because...well its Messi. Messi has been incredible but I don't think it has been his best season in terms of general play. He isn't playing with the same intensity and he gives the ball away a lot easier than in previous seasons. That being said, he is more ruthless then ever in his goalscoring and assists so it is hard to criticize him. I just think that out of everybody in the squad, Iniesta has been the player who has excited me the most this season. He has played with such consistency and grace and has been our most dangerous player in countless games. There have been many games where Messi has scored and provided great assists but hasn't been great for large portions of the game. Its a testament to his unbelievable talent that he can win a match with these moments of sheer genius. Iniesta cant do the things Messi does, but in those spells of matches where Messi hasn't been at his best Iniesta has been a constant threat to the opposition.

But playing their best is not the same as being the best player. Messi has given up some quality in some areas, to be a better goal scorer, better freekick/penalty taker etc, and more decisive. Last season he gave 35 points for direct contribution in La Liga, this season he has already given 31.

Also words like grace and exciting have nothing to do with quality.

Messi is indirectly our most dangerous player in every single game, that's why every opposition concentrates on him, which should leave space for others.

 

[footyfan]

Iniesta has certainly been better than Messi and goals scored doesn't change a thing.
Teams concede goals, and teams score them. When Messi has the last touch to put the ball in the net, even after outstanding athletic plays, it has been a TEAM EFFORT.

You're reducing Messi to a mere goal-scorer in the way you describe him. I would actually agree with that for 2013 but not for the entire season. You reduce goal-scoring to a team effort and something that doesn't require too much skill (which is ridiculous considering how difficult it is for our other forwards to score). On the other hand, you make it sound like Iniesta alone has created a feeling of hopelessness in the other team (and you don't even have any evidence for that because that is unquantifiable and can never be proved/measured). Guess what, possession is far more team-based than scoring goals. You really need to look back at our earlier fixtures to see how important Messi was then.

How many times has Messi scored after Iniesta had spent the match doing a much better job of helping the opposition along toward mental/physical exhaustion and a feeling of hopelessness?

Not many. Opposition are certainly not tiring out towards the end of the game as they used to. In addition to that, Messi has not been scoring many late goals this season. And when he has (like vs Granada or vs Osasuna), Iniesta has either been on the bench or had a poor game. Interestingly, those were games where many people would agree that Messi literally saved the team by earning 3 points.

I'm re-iterating - but the best evidence you can find to suggest Messi's superiority is the man of the match thread because the opinions are recorded right after the game. When we have these hypothetical arguments now, recent performances will always cloud our judgment. I'm not gonna lie - I also felt that Iniesta has been better than Messi this season when I read this thread yesterday. But then I actually thought about it.

And obviously, statistically Iniesta is no match for Messi. So both subjectively and objectively, the evidence points to Messi.

You can obviously always question the methods (lot of people on this forum like their own opinions more than whoscored), a lot of people will also disregard the man of the match thread for being filled with Messi "fanboys". In that case, I don't actually have any other evidence to either prove or disprove that Messi has been better than Iniesta.

 

[Kerrybai]

Iniesta and Messi have been above and beyond most of our team this season , but to suggest Iniesta has been better is just plain wrong. The objective of football is to put the ball in the net, messi does this better than any other footballer in the world. Iniesta often chokes in front of goal. Messi saves us time and time again. When Iniesta scores free kicks to win games, or terrific Solo winners like those Messi scored against deportivo and Betis then we can argue that he's been better this season.

 

[jiopi]

Iniesta and Messi have been above and beyond most of our team this season , but to suggest Iniesta has been better is just plain wrong. The objective of football is to put the ball in the net, messi does this better than any other footballer in the world. Iniesta often chokes in front of goal. Messi saves us time and time again. When Iniesta scores free kicks to win games, or terrific Solo winners like those Messi scored against deportivo and Betis then we can argue that he's been better this season.

It's not only that, but Messi has dribbled twice as much as Iniesta this season with better conversion ratio, and his dribbles are usually more effective, which means he has been involving in buildup play more. Messi has also been fouled twice as much, which suggests that he has been more dangerous.

Only thing Iniesta has been as good is the creative part of the game.

Iniesta - Messi La Liga

Assists 13 - 9
Throughballs 11 - 10
Key Passes 31 - 36
Crosses 3 - 5
Longballs 43 - 59

When we look defensive contributions, Iniesta on default should be clearly on front in those. Which isn't the case:

Tackles 19 - 17
Interceptions 8 - 7
Fouls 11 - 12
Clearances 3 - 1
Dribbled 10 - 10
Blocks 1 - 1

 

[Irish_Cules]

It's not only that, but Messi has dribbled twice as much as Iniesta this season with better conversion ratio, and his dribbles are usually more effective, which means he has been involving in buildup play more. Messi has also been fouled twice as much, which suggests that he has been more dangerous.

Only thing Iniesta has been as good is the creative part of the game.

Iniesta - Messi La Liga

Assists 13 - 9
Throughballs 11 - 10
Key Passes 31 - 36
Crosses 3 - 5
Longballs 43 - 59

When we look defensive contributions, Iniesta on default should be clearly on front in those. Which isn't the case:

Tackles 19 - 17
Interceptions 8 - 7
Fouls 11 - 12
Clearances 3 - 1
Dribbled 10 - 10
Blocks 1 - 1

Lay off the stats man. They can be useful but they dont show everything. Just watch them play.

I know its hard to argue against Messi being our best player this season considering the ridiculous amount of goals he has scored. I admit he probably is our player of the season and will be for years to come due to his unmatched ability. What I am saying is that on average, over 90 mins of every game this season Iniesta has been our most impressive and influential player on the pitch. Messi provides the decisive moments that ultimately win the game, and he has provided so many of them so consistently this season. However, apart from the moments, I think Iniesta has been better.

 

[jiopi]

Lay off the stats man. They can be useful but they dont show everything. Just watch them play.

I know its hard to argue against Messi being our best player this season considering the ridiculous amount of goals he has scored. I admit he probably is our player of the season and will be for years to come due to his unmatched ability. What I am saying is that on average, over 90 mins of every game this season Iniesta has been our most impressive and influential player on the pitch. Messi provides the decisive moments that ultimately win the game, and he has provided so many of them so consistently this season. However, apart from the moments, I think Iniesta has been better.

I watch every game, and I think those portray what has happened pretty well. Stats tell the honest truth, it's just matter of interpreting them.

Being influential you mean keeping possession in midfield? Because any advancing or defensive contributions will be shown in statistics provided. With these few losses we have seen how important the possession part is, without creativity and decisiveness. It's pointless because it can't keep us conceding.

 

[Irish_Cules]

I watch every game, and I think those portray what has happened pretty well. Stats tell the honest truth, it's just matter of interpreting them.

Being influential you mean keeping possession in midfield? Because any advancing or defensive contributions will be shown in statistics provided. With these few losses we have seen how important the possession part is, without creativity and decisiveness. It's pointless because it can't keep us conceding.

Iniesta is not just somebody who keeps possession. In fact, Iniesta is our main outlet for switching from playing keep ball into starting an attacking move. His ability to accelerate over a short space and to dribble by players with ease is one of the main ways we speed up our game and commence with an attack. That is why Iniesta is so vital to Barcelona. He has the ability to play keep ball but in a flash he can accelerate by defenders before they even notice he is dribbling. Without him, opponents would find it much easier to reduce our game to mindless possession, even easier then they have found it over the last couple of weeks.