Antoine Griezmann

[Messi983]

I know I'm asking for a lot but can we have some patience, please?

Griezmann has played 2 games with (unfit) Messi and (a bit more fit but still far from being in good form) Suarez so far. He has shown some good things when playing with the kids in earlier games and he's working hard in every game but he needs to get on the same page with Messi and Suarez. This is not FIFA/FM and it will take time for them to gel together and understand each other. But first and foremost Messi needs to get back to 100%. I'm pretty sure he and Griezmann will play great together in a few weeks/months.

Those stupid speculations about Messi and Griezmann not liking each other are not even worth commenting so I'll just say this. They might not be the best friends off the pitch (and that's ok, we don't need this club de amigos s*** anyway) but they are both 100% professionals and will find a way to work together on the field.

Another thing to consider is we were playing with Semedo as a LB who can't use his left foot so he was ineffective offensively (he also doesn't do much on the right but still much better there; I'd prefer EV to change Semedo and Roberto's sides if we'll again be without a LB) which also influenced AG's performance.

I think eventually our plan will be to play a 4-4-2 diamond like this:

-----------MATS---------
Semedo-Pique-Lenglet-Alba
----FDJ---Busi---Arthur----
-----------Messi----------
----Suarez--Griezmann----

with both FBs (especially Alba/Firpo) pushing higher up the pitch so Griezmann can move central. Messi and Griezmann can also exchange their roles with Griezmann dropping deeper and Messi staying closer to the goal. It's not ideal but with Dembele not able to stay healthy and Fati still inexperienced that's the best possible option with both of the youngsters coming off the bench in second half using their speed against tired defenders.

In ideal world we would also play FDJ as a DM instead of Busi but then there is a question who should be a second CM. It's not the right thread to discuss this anyway.

 

[Lapi]

-----------Messi----------
----Suarez--Griezmann----

This is a popular setup, most probably EV will go for this all the time, but considering modern football this will not work.
They are stunning players individually, but none of them are speedy enough for the contemporary game.

Among 3 attackers any team with great ambitions, like Barca, needs at least one of them being speedy.
I'm not saying that Dembele is the final solution for that, but anyone with considerable speed, which seems to be the essence of attack nowadays.

The MSN was great in its time, because Neymar was is/was very fast, and neither Messi nor Suarez lost that much pace back then.

 

[gasgas]

It was a dumb move to buy Griezmann given the shit context at the club.

But if there was no club de amigos and if Barça had a creative coach, an innovator, he’d have found a way to fit Griezmann.

Even now, something like the below lineup would allow Griezmann to perform

Suarez Griez
Messi
Alba FDJ Vidal Perez
Umtiti Pique Todibo

With Alba and Perez occupying flanks in attacking scenarios. And Griezmann dropping deep in defensive scenarios. Messi and Griezmann would both be near their favorite areas, and Messi would still be happy cause his BFF Suarez would still be on the pitch.

Truth is Valverde would never try something like that, he’s too narrow minded. And it leaves important players on the bench (Arthur, Dembélé, Busquets, Semedo, Lenglet) and a guy like Arthur doesn’t deserve that. He’s Barça’s best player this season thus far.

The question would be: is Griezmann worth all those compromises ?
Well ask the board which went and spent 120 millions on the dude.
I think Griezmann wasn’t a necessity, and that it’s too complicated to find a place for him here atm.

Important thing though: Griezmann came at Barca as a relatively young & proven world class player unlike Coutinho (who played for EL level teams previously) and Dembélé (who’s still a kid). There’s less risk buying Griezmann than those guys. But of course if you buy the guy without having a clear idea of how you’ll fit him here, even he might end up as a flop.

You mean benching Arthur in favor of Umtiti and Todibo?

 

[Poor_Sunyol]

I know I'm asking for a lot but can we have some patience, please?

Griezmann has played 2 games with (unfit) Messi and (a bit more fit but still far from being in good form) Suarez so far. He has shown some good things when playing with the kids in earlier games and he's working hard in every game but he needs to get on the same page with Messi and Suarez. This is not FIFA/FM and it will take time for them to gel together and understand each other. But first and foremost Messi needs to get back to 100%. I'm pretty sure he and Griezmann will play great together in a few weeks/months.

Those stupid speculations about Messi and Griezmann not liking each other are not even worth commenting so I'll just say this. They might not be the best friends off the pitch (and that's ok, we don't need this club de amigos s*** anyway) but they are both 100% professionals and will find a way to work together on the field.

Another thing to consider is we were playing with Semedo as a LB who can't use his left foot so he was ineffective offensively (he also doesn't do much on the right but still much better there; I'd prefer EV to change Semedo and Roberto's sides if we'll again be without a LB) which also influenced AG's performance.

I think eventually our plan will be to play a 4-4-2 diamond like this:

-----------MATS---------
Semedo-Pique-Lenglet-Alba
----FDJ---Busi---Arthur----
-----------Messi----------
----Suarez--Griezmann----

with both FBs (especially Alba/Firpo) pushing higher up the pitch so Griezmann can move central. Messi and Griezmann can also exchange their roles with Griezmann dropping deeper and Messi staying closer to the goal. It's not ideal but with Dembele not able to stay healthy and Fati still inexperienced that's the best possible option with both of the youngsters coming off the bench in second half using their speed against tired defenders.

In ideal world we would also play FDJ as a DM instead of Busi but then there is a question who should be a second CM. It's not the right thread to discuss this anyway.

I agree that we need to give him more time but it is frustrating to have yet another big money buy not gelling with the team. It has happened so many times lately that it can't just be coincidence. Something weird is going on in the club.

 

[M3ls]

About Griezmann.

In the summer, I said that he is guaranteed to give us the amount of work without the ball (surprise - surprise), but I have doubts about his efficiency in the attack on Barcelona.

And we should not blame Griezmann. He can play great in the position of the false nine, which we have already seen this season, plus in the role of 10 in the scheme 4 - 3 - 2 - 1 and the drawn forward in the scheme 4 - 4 - 2.

Given the presence of Leo in the team, even if we kick Suarez out of the team, the problem of Griezmann’s position will not disappear.

He is not a winger, because he doesn't have high speed and strong dribbling. And the role of the tip over Leo can not be assigned to him. He is a player of a different format who likes to attack from the depths in the center or the right half - space.




We can't assign him the role of Villa on the left flank, since he is left-handed. And the left-footed player is extremely inconvenient to play with offsets in the center (like Villa in Barcelona).


As it was in that Barcelona:

1. Leo goes deeper closer to the right half space or in zone 14;
2. Pedro holds the width to the right, pulling on himself a letf - fullback, thereby creating space for Leo.
3. Villa through the left half - space attacks the opponent's penalty area.

Well, in short, sending Suarez to the bench does not solve this problem.


That's why in the summer I advocated the purchase of Jesus, who is stronger than Griezmann in speed and dribble, plus he is right-handed and can play the role of a classic winger.
In addition, he is not inferior to Griezmann in terms of work without a ball.

Once again I repeat, I do not criticize Griezmann, we are talking about the coaching staff + leadership, who didn't think about what position Griezmann would play and whether he would be useful in this position.


Sorry for my English

 

[FinBarcelonafan]

Antoine is doing worse than Coutinho. With each passing game his influence diminishes.

Too static, scared and submissive to Messi's presence.


With Luis, Messi, Griezmann on the pitch out whole team suffers, there's no movement for our midfield to pass to, and zero cover to our defense.

Griezmann is defending a lot actually. That's one thing he is elite. Maybe even too defensive.

 

[Co0ter]

He doesn't need to play as a box to box midfielder, we dont even need a box to box mid when playing Arthur and De Jong. We need someone with freedom to run around up front and link up with the front 3. Griezman can do that, he always played best as a second striker, and he has the lungs to help defensively when required and is a much bigger goal threat than Vidal. He is used to bouncing off striker and utilizing the wings. The fact is he is here, all 100mil+ of him and he is a very good player. He is 100% wasted far out on the wing and he is not going to be our number 9 either. It would be the best solution for us. If you say our best starting mid is De Jong DM, Arthur CM then Griezman should be starting ahead of Vidal. Vidal is someone you unleash when you need to change things up. Not a starter. Even looking at it as a 3124, or standard with Griezman as RCM.

 

[mc_lovin]

Griezmann is not a midfielder or even a 10. Just let it rest.

 

[FCBarca]

Agreed but even his pressing has been dwindling game after game. His passing isn't as crisp as it was, I think his confidence is shot.

The body language does not reflect a comfortable player. Whether there's some coldness in the locker room or simply being dejected out on the left wing, who knows. Either way, there feels like chemistry issues atm and I'm not sure that develops even in a few months. Positionally he is flexible and is a great combination player but isolated he appears to be really out of sync.

Ultimately, we're left to hope Valverde can find the best way to line these players up to maximize the talent at his disposal but we can agree that it is a futile wish. I think however the best tactical formation the coach could implement is his favored 4-4-2, unfortunately. It's mind numbingly boring but would get the best out of Messi, Suarez & Griezmann

 

[PhilS]

Greizmann can't be the automatic choice to play alongside Suarez and Messi. He needs to play less, especially less at left forward.

 

[Leo_Messi]

Just a quick thought.

-----------MaTS-----------
Semedo---Piqué---Todibo
------FDJ--------Arthur----
Pérez---------------------Alba/Firpo
-----------Messi----------
----------------Griezmann----
-----------Suárez-----------

Pérez and Alba/Firpo to ensure width on both flanks of the pitch. Pérez' defensive work rate is very underrated and he has the necessary pace as well as the lungs to stretch the pitch constantly, open up passing lanes for his teammates and to make runs behind the defense. Much like Alba and Firpo on the other flank.

Todibo and Semedo would ensure a very pacy back three, unlike the current extremely slow Piqué-Lenglet CB partnership, that would be moreover covered by Pérez and Alba when needed with the midfield bulwark of FDJ and Arthur in front of them.

Messi would have the ideal role for him in such a formation while Griezmann would not have to be wasted on the "wing" and likewise play in his preferred position as a second striker right behind Suárez. A Suárez that would be much less involved in terms of creation, preferred option in his current state, playing behind creative masterminds like Messi and Griezmann.

The formation leaves out the likes of Dembélé and Fati (perfect impact subs against tired defenses) but the formation allows tactical flexibility with just 1 substitution. Pérez' position could be replaced by Roberto (if instructed to play as a very offensive wing-back) or Dembélé depending on the opposition.

Of course Malmierda is never going to even consider such an unorthodox formation but it could be a solution at times (depending on the respective opponent's weaknesses and strengths) if the intention is not to be wasting Griezmann by playing him out of position while at the same time not leaving Suárez out of the starting 11 and ensuring that there will be width in the team on both flanks.

Leaving Busquets (a shadow of his former self), Rakitic (virtually discarded by Malmierda and the board) and Vidal out is not the greatest sin in the world given their respective current levels and advanced age. In any case, if greater midfield control is needed, Pérez can be replaced by either of the 3, with the formation automatically turning into a 4-3-1-2 or last nights pseudo "4-3-3" formation.

Most importantly the team would have tons of PACE and MOVEMENT using that formation. Piqué's lack of pace (in his current version) would be covered very well in that formation and so would Messi's and Suárez' lack of pace and pressing as long as Pérez and Alba/Firpo would do what they are best at, likewise the FDJ and Arthur duo and Griezmann being the old Atlético de Madrid Griezmann that works his ass off and compensates for the lack of pressing and off the ball movement of Messi and Suárez.

Worth a try at least and I would not be the least surprised if it worked very well in practice. However we would need a manager a "bit" more advantageous, brave and innovative than the sorry excuse of a manager that Malmierda is, for such a formation to be implemented let alone tried. For some "club de amigos" clan members (mostly the midfield members) to admit defeat too.

EDIT: Imagine having the option of Bernardo Silva (the same guy that I openly wanted us to buy back in 2017, rather than the fraud Coutinho) in Pérez' position. Would be ideal.

 

[Ernesto GOATverde Tejedor]

Just a quick thought.

-----------MaTS-----------
Semedo---Piqué---Todibo
------FDJ--------Arthur----
Pérez---------------------Alba/Firpo
-----------Messi----------
----------------Griezmann----
-----------Suárez-----------

Pérez and Alba/Firpo to ensure width on both flanks of the pitch. Pérez' defensive work rate is very underrated and he has the necessary pace as well as the lungs to stretch the pitch constantly, open up passing lanes for his teammates and to make runs behind the defense. Much like Alba and Firpo on the other flank.

Todibo and Semedo would ensure a very pacy back three, unlike the current extremely slow Piqué-Lenglet CB partnership, that would be moreover covered by Pérez and Alba when needed with the midfield bulwark of FDJ and Arthur in front of them.

Messi would have the ideal role for him in such a formation while Griezmann would not have to be wasted on the "wing" and likewise play in his preferred position as a second striker right behind Suárez. A Suárez that would be much less involved in terms of creation, preferred option in his current state, playing behind creative masterminds like Messi and Griezmann.

The formation leaves out the likes of Dembélé and Fati (perfect impact subs against tired defenses) but the formation allows tactical flexibility with just 1 substitution. Pérez' position could be replaced by Roberto (if instructed to play as a very offensive wing-back) or Dembélé depending on the opposition.

Of course Malmierda is never going to even consider such an unorthodox formation but it could be a solution at times (depending on the respective opponent's weaknesses and strengths) if the intention is not to be wasting Griezmann by playing him out of position while at the same time not leaving Suárez out of the starting 11 and ensuring that there will be width in the team on both flanks.

Leaving Busquets (a shadow of his former self), Rakitic (virtually discarded by Malmierda and the board) and Vidal out is not the greatest sin in the world given their respective current levels and advanced age. In any case, if greater midfield control is needed, Pérez can be replaced by either of the 3, with the formation automatically turning into a 4-3-1-2 or last nights pseudo "4-3-3" formation.

Most importantly the team would have tons of PACE and MOVEMENT using that formation. Piqué's lack of pace (in his current version) would be covered very well in that formation and so would Messi's and Suárez' lack of pace and pressing as long as Pérez and Alba/Firpo would do what they are best at, likewise the FDJ and Arthur duo and Griezmann being the old Atlético de Madrid Griezmann that works his ass off and compensates for the lack of pressing and off the ball movement of Messi and Suárez.

Worth a try at least and I would not be the least surprised if it worked very well in practice. However we would need a manager a "bit" more advantageous, brave and innovative than the sorry excuse of a manager that Malmierda is, for such a formation to be implemented let alone tried. For some "club de amigos" clan members (mostly the midfield members) to admit defeat too.

EDIT: Imagine having the option of Bernardo Silva (the same guy that I openly wanted us to buy back in 2017, rather than the fraud Coutinho) in Pérez' position. Would be ideal.

I have been advocating a 3 5 2 with Semedo as a RCB since pre-season. Not only does it cover many of our flaws that get exposed in the 4 3 3 but it allows for greater flexibility.

For example above , I would personally play Dembele as the RWB in home games and Bob or even Wague in away games. Imagine Dembele as the main outlet To use his pace for transition from defense into attack. To see out tight games sub off Griez and put on Vidal and get him to sit above the 2 CMs or even next to them if under too much pressure.

352 is the only formation where every player gets to play in his best position. Personally, we have no chance of the CL with any other formation

 

[Leo_Messi]

I have been advocating a 3 5 2 with Semedo as a RCB since pre-season. Not only does it cover many of our flaws that get exposed in the 4 3 3 but it allows for greater flexibility.

For example above , I would personally play Dembele as the RWB in home games and Bob or even Wague in away games. Imagine Dembele as the main outlet To use his pace for transition from defense into attack. To see out tight games sub off Griez and put on Vidal and get him to sit above the 2 CMs or even next to them if under too much pressure.

352 is the only formation where every player gets to play in his best position. Personally, we have no chance of the CL with any other formation

The exact formation is not really the key but more about alleviating and covering the team's main weaknesses while emphasizing it's strengths and the individual talent of each player or more precisely our best players. For starters, I believe that it is criminal to invest €120 million on a world class player like Griezmann for him to be wasted in the current useless (largely) setup or worse for him to warm the bench.

You could call my formation for a 3-2-2-1-1-1 or 3-2-2-1-2 formation as well. The formation should not be set in stone but rather emphasize a more fluid, pace and movement-based football while trying to fit our 3 best (individually) offensive players in Messi, Suárez and Griezmann, our 2 by far best midfielders in Arthur and FDJ as well as retaining the width of the team and Semedo's and Alba's pace.

Pérez could be replaced by Dembélé, me being one of the few users here on Barçaforum that has not yet given up on him completely, but I don't think that the current version of Dembélé is disciplined (offensively or defensively) or hard-working enough to do what a humble canterano like Pérez could do in that position. Pérez might not be the greatest individual talents but it is hard not to admire his work rate, pace, La Masia upbringing, grinta and humbleness. I really believe that he would excel in a formation like that where he would not have the burden of being the sole creative outlet on the right flank with Semedo's rather unimpressive offensive abilities. Pérez would also happily cover for Messi in such a position. Much like Rakitic did in the 2014-15 season. Pérez being a much more dynamic player who can easily beat his man one on one but lacking in other departments compared to a prime Rakitic. However as I wrote, Dembélé could be used in that role depending on the strength and weaknesses of the opponent. Likewise Roberto if you want a more conservative approach. Malmierda and all.

Agree with the rest and I have been saying the same thing ever since I saw a sharp decline in Busquets's and Rakitic performances in the 2016-17 season as well as Messi and Suárez becoming defensive liabilities when not in possession.

Anyway moving the discussion to this thread here

http://www.barcaforum.com/showthrea...ches-analysis-with-pics?p=2114090#post2114090

as the discussion has less to do with Griezmann than our overall tactics as a whole.

 

[Leo_Messi]

I have been advocating a 3 5 2 with Semedo as a RCB since pre-season. Not only does it cover many of our flaws that get exposed in the 4 3 3 but it allows for greater flexibility.

For example above , I would personally play Dembele as the RWB in home games and Bob or even Wague in away games. Imagine Dembele as the main outlet To use his pace for transition from defense into attack. To see out tight games sub off Griez and put on Vidal and get him to sit above the 2 CMs or even next to them if under too much pressure.

352 is the only formation where every player gets to play in his best position. Personally, we have no chance of the CL with any other formation

The exact formation is not really the key but more about alleviating and covering the team's main weaknesses while emphasizing it's strengths and the individual talent of each player or more precisely our best players. For starters, I believe that it is criminal to invest €120 million on a world class player like Griezmann for him to be wasted in the current useless (largely) setup or worse for him to warm the bench.

You could call my formation for a 3-2-2-1-1-1 or 3-2-2-1-2 formation as well. The formation should not be set in stone but rather emphasize a more fluid, pace and movement-based football while trying to fit our 3 best (individually) offensive players in Messi, Suárez and Griezmann, our 2 by far best midfielders in Arthur and FDJ as well as retaining the width of the team and Semedo's and Alba's pace.

Pérez could be replaced by Dembélé, me being one of the few users here on Barçaforum that has not yet given up on him completely, but I don't think that the current version of Dembélé is disciplined (offensively or defensively) or hard-working enough to do what a humble canterano like Pérez could do in that position. Pérez might not be the greatest individual talent but it is hard not to admire his work rate, pace, La Masia upbringing, grinta and humbleness. I really believe that he would excel in a formation like that where he would not have the burden of being the sole creative outlet on the right flank with Semedo's rather unimpressive offensive abilities but much greater defensive contribution in fairness. Pérez would also happily cover for Messi defensively in such a position. Much like Rakitic did in the 2014-15 season. Pérez being a much more dynamic player who can easily beat his man one on one but lacking in other departments compared to a prime Rakitic. However as I wrote, Dembélé could be used in that role depending on the strength and weaknesses of the opponent. Likewise Roberto if you want a more conservative approach. Malmierda and all.

Agree with the rest and I have been saying the same thing ever since I saw a sharp decline in Busquets's and Rakitic performances in the 2016-17 season as well as Messi and Suárez becoming defensive liabilities when not in possession.

Anyway moving the discussion to this thread here

http://www.barcaforum.com/showthrea...ches-analysis-with-pics?p=2114090#post2114090

as the discussion has less to do with Griezmann than our overall tactics as a whole.

 

[Co0ter]

Griezmann is not a midfielder or even a 10. Just let it rest.

No one said he is. Sometimes I feel the majority of people have reading comprehension problems.

The issue at hand is HE is on our team. Whether you like it or not. After watching various different compositions of our midfield line up, it is quite obvious our strongest midfield consists of De Jong as DM and Arthur in one of the CM roles. Arthur is not attacking oriented, he is possession oriented. We need an attacking minded midfielder in our third slot. Vidal can do this, but he is not a starter. He's not disciplined, he's the sort of player you put in when you need to try something different. He runs around like a chicken with his head cut off, and that is useful in certain situations. Roberto is not the answer. Neither is Alena. Rakitic is not either. That leaves us with Puig who is not ready.

Griezman may have never played as a CM before, but he wouldn't play that in a traditional sense for us. We have lots of coverage in De Jong and Arthur now. A player like Coutinho looks great on paper in that role, but he is weak defensively and his work rate was surprisingly bad. Griezman is the exact opposite. He has the work rate and is very good defensively for an offensive minded player. He could thrive in that role, which considering how deep Arthur enjoys playing, would look more like a 3-1-2-4.

People whine about buying players and playing them where they aren't suited, but yet here they are. You know what is worse than that? Continuing to play them there instead of creating a role that they are much more suited for, because at the end of the day he is far more talented than any other player we have that could potentially partner up with De Jong and Arthur.