Arthur

Gnidrologist

Senior Member
That's simply wrong. If you are in a good position don't leave it, except when you know someone else will take it up.
Well that's exactly our problem. Our mids very rarely are in good position. Busquets does what he always has done and i don't blame him much, but Rakitic is lurking somewhere between him and CB, jogging around his tiny prefered radius even when we are in possession and rarely runs into spaces to receive advanced pass. When he receives the ball he is also unable to beat his marker or wiggle out under pressure so he mostly passes back or to the side cornering and killing any advancement. Vidal is only a bit better in this respect as he loves to move vertically more and quite often wins the ball back in opposite half that can create good opportuities, but overall his movement is hectic, which doesn't bring any fluidity in attack or safety in possession. Arthur is the only guy who can make us be fluid in possession, which in turn leaves our forwards less starved for ball. This is not rocket science. If our other mids would move into spaces like they did in older times, then i would agree with critique of Arthur's movement, but they are barely moving most of the time and get overwhelmed by oppsite press constantly, which is where Arthur comes in with his ability to release the tension and allows us to keep the ball moving. He still has a lot to improve and i think he would look way better along with De Jong, who is also good at movement and lively.
 

serghei

Senior Member
[MENTION=16942]BBZ8800[/MENTION], don't know if you noticed, but I almost never post stats, rankings for Ballon d'or or things like that, except when I use them to make fun of PSG and Ligue 1 :)lol:) because it's so goddamn convenient and I can't help myself from doing that.

I do however watch individual players at times without looking at the ball. Barca plays 50-60 games a season usually, and in some of those games I watch a player's movements also when the ball is not on him. I watched Arthur specifically in some games both on the ball in offensive play, and off the ball in defensive transition. So I have an informed opinion about what he does well and what he doesn't do well, and this goes beyond what some stupid stats say.

Here's the thing about stats:

In 2010-11 which is possibly one of Xavi's best ever seasons, Xavi had 7 assists in La Liga. Ozil in that season had 19 assists. A person like you would normally have to believe that in 2010-11 Ozil was a much better creative passer than Xavi. But then again, this wouldn't consider the difference between the tactics of Barcelona vs the direct style of Mourinho's Madrid. It wouldn't account for the huge amount of times that Xavi was involved in the build-up of a goal with a clever pass or a clever movement without necessarily giving the assist and registering in those whoscored stats or whatever you post.
 

serghei

Senior Member
And also, who doesn't point to Arthur's flaws? I have said numerous times that Vidal is the better choice when you have a defense first approach. Again, I remind you that since Vidal signed I've commended him numerous times about the qualities he adds to this team that others just can't add. Aggression, non-stop commitment, 100% professionalism, winning attitude. Things which matter a lot.

Every player has flaws and abilities. You seem to think Arthur has only flaws, with almost no qualities. But I told you my opinion. You don't see his value because you don't understand the principles of possession football. Because you don't like it much to begin with.
 

GoodKid

New member
It is always beneficial to the team to receive the ball between the lines, free of markers, hence why the importance of fluidity and off the ball movement in possession football. It is not beneficial for a midfielder to hide away behind markers and play a lot of stale possession into areas where the opponents want you to play.

lmao so you agree with me that what Arthur does is not beneficial for the team?
 

serghei

Senior Member
lmao so you agree with me that what Arthur does is not beneficial for the team?

No. I even said the adjustments Arthur makes in his positioning are very important in advancing the play in the hot zones (central areas usually). Where you can cause the most damage since a certain Messi plays there.
 

GoodKid

New member
Well that's exactly our problem. Our mids very rarely are in good position. Busquets does what he always has done and i don't blame him much, but Rakitic is lurking somewhere between him and CB, jogging around his tiny prefered radius even when we are in possession and rarely runs into spaces to receive advanced pass. When he receives the ball he is also unable to beat his marker or wiggle out under pressure so he mostly passes back or to the side cornering and killing any advancement. Vidal is only a bit better in this respect as he loves to move vertically more and quite often wins the ball back in opposite half that can create good opportuities, but overall his movement is hectic, which doesn't bring any fluidity in attack or safety in possession. Arthur is the only guy who can make us be fluid in possession, which in turn leaves our forwards less starved for ball. This is not rocket science. If our other mids would move into spaces like they did in older times, then i would agree with critique of Arthur's movement, but they are barely moving most of the time and get overwhelmed by oppsite press constantly, which is where Arthur comes in with his ability to release the tension and allows us to keep the ball moving. He still has a lot to improve and i think he would look way better along with De Jong, who is also good at movement and lively.

Our mids are rarely in good positions and the solution to that is playing Arthur who is even worse at that??
 

GoodKid

New member
No. I even said the adjustments Arthur makes in his positioning are very important in advancing the play in the hot zones (central areas usually). Where you can cause the most damage since a certain Messi plays there.

Ok. Agree to disagree. But pay more attention to the distances Arthur keeps to his teammates, especially Busquets. Sometimes he even dribbles past them or in their direction when he has the ball instead of just passing the ball to them. It's like he doesn't see them.
 

aqua2nd

New member
Depends on what you call interception? You think intercepting the ball is done by a single player? Winning the ball back in the times of Guardiola was a team tactic. Not a player role. And before saying that was Guardiola, and shouldn't be viewed as a model, well, in defense, he kind of did usual stuff. Pressing, blocking passing options, things that are normal for any team who wants to defend in another way than just put 10 men behind the ball in a low block, which I guess you can say it means normal defending these days (Zidane, Valverde, Mourinho, Simeone, Allegri, all use this).

Back to what is an interception. Consider this scenario:

If say Arthur presses a player, or he cuts down his best passing options by off the ball movement and intensity (which are his best attributes, and why he is subbed at min.60 mark, man runs a lot and closes a lot of passing options for the other team), and Rakitic gets the ball, the merit for winning the ball is not Rakitic's alone, but also Arthur's. Somewhere in those stats you like to post, that is lost.

In possession football, an interception, or turn of possession vs top teams is usually a 3-part job (or more). Hence the old and true saying, turned into a cliche, that football is a team sport. Every aspect of football is done as a team.

1) pressurize the ball carrier so that he has to make a passing decision
2) cut down the main and best passing options by way of smart positioning and intensity

1 and 2 done right makes the ball carrier do one of these two actions:

a) recycle possession, which is basically a form of giving the passing initiative to another player, but a player who is positioned worse than him, which is still a gain for the defending team (the one trying to get the ball back, intercept it as you call it)

b) make the pass in bad conditions (as in marked teammates, passes with low chances of completion, fancy dribbles etc), and those bad conditions basically mean very high chances of losing the ball.

everytime b) happens (and will happen if the defending team applies 1 and 2 the right way) we get to:

3) get the ball back when the pass is made into an area that you control.

The player who gets the 3) part is the one who is credited by stats as the one who got the ball back, but in most cases the players involved in 1) and 2) are equally important.

Arthur is often involved in the 2) part. No credit whatsoever.

A player like Vidal is a monster because, due to his athletic abilities, aggression, and defensive quality can do both 1) and 3) at the same time.

What do ball winners actually do that is so valuable? They press the player who has the ball in such a good way, that the player already panics and turns the ball. Takes time away from them singlehandedly and forces them into mistakes.

The 'stats illusion' is that a stat defines a purpose (scoring a goal, making an assist, making an interception), but it ties that purpose to a single player, who gets the stat. But in fact, there is a whole sequence of events who make the purpose achievable. And the guy who gets the stat, while having a very important contribution, is not the only factor.

You think and say things as if a game is made of 11 individuals who play next to each other and all bring up their individual game. But in many systems, especially in the positional possession system, the football is not like that. Which is why you have issues understanding and appreciating for players who connect the game and bond the passes together, or players who are good at using movement and position to defend, not muscles and tackles. Watch what the Brazil manager said about Arthur, that he is a facilitator, who connects his teammates with his passing and movement. Makes them reach each other better while playing possession football. You just don't care for this type of football, something odd for a Barca fan, but while not caring for it you blame players for things you don't understand (because you don't care).

Completely agree with you here
it's unfortunately that fans like BBZ8800 and GoodKid don't understand the way we're playing
By the comments from BBZ8800 I bet he would love Mourinho's Inter or Chelsea to death if he was a fan of one of those teams. There isn't any more beautiful thing to him than a team with all members can defend.
Also you're wasting your time to argue with a kid even if it's a good kid.
 

GoodKid

New member
Completely agree with you here
it's unfortunately that fans like BBZ8800 and GoodKid don't understand the way we're playing
By the comments from BBZ8800 I bet he would love Mourinho's Inter or Chelsea to death if he was a fan of one of those teams. There isn't any more beautiful thing to him than a team with all members can defend.
Also you're wasting your time to argue with a kid even if it's a good kid.

I don't even disagree with serghei on this post. Funny how you instantly put me in a category instead of taking my arguments for what they are.
 

aqua2nd

New member
Cool.
You replied absolutely nothing about Arthur entering Busi's area for no reason.

I am not saying that Arthur don't have 100s of good virtues.

But I have a feeling sometimes on this forum that we are in a twillight zone, or brainwashed or a cult following place.

A person A says: Arthur is bad in interceptions.
100 other users reply: but he is press resistant, lol.
A person B: he seems to have stamina issues.
100 other users: you are an idiot! He is our only press resistant player!
Person C: he is taking Busi's position.
100 users, you know the answer: but he IS press resistant.
Wtf, is this some psychological experiment, lol?

Fine, we get it, he is press resistant.
Can we move to discussing other areas?
Or your brains don't allow you those things?

Serghei, what is your explanation about Arthur's extremely low number of interceptions over the whole season?


I think people tried to tell you that it's not correct to value players' contribution with just tackles and intercepts and there is more ways to contribute to the defend.
It's just you that didn't accept the fact that there is more to discuss than just those stats.
You love to show off the stats to prove your points. Fine, do it with all the facts. Don't use some skew versions of the facts to lead your narrative.
And I swear this is 3rd or 4th times I tell you that you can't expect any midfielder to be a intercept and tackle freak. Not everybody is physically built for that job, and that still doesn't count in the fact that he is having muscular problem.
 
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abiabi

Member
But .. but we need to start a bunch of tall workmen in midfield so we can defend ..

Lmao its not our style, we need the ball and Arthur is crucial for this. Its so idiotic how many posters here thought it was a good idea to defend deep
 

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