Arthur

[kadeng]

The only reason why Arthur is fans' favourite is because he has the profile that fits in well with Barça system. But I don't think his ceiling is high enough to be a long-term starter assuming that Barça remains to be a contender for the CL with or without Messi. When we manage to have more competitive midfield squad, his input won't be that impressive unless he significantly improves his game.

name just one player in the world on his position who fits in well with our 'former' system and has a higher ceiling.

 

[underoath]

name just one player in the world on his position who fits in well with our 'former' system and has a higher ceiling.

Seriously you're asking that ? Do you actually believe thay Arthur is above than everyone with the same play style ?

 

[FinBarcelonafan]

At least he wouldn't shit his pants like other Barca players.

Arthur is our future.

 

[serghei]

The point is you have to notice the pattern of how momentum is dependent on who's half the game is being played in, and which team is on the back foot. Liverpool swarmed the hell out of us so that the game was being played in our half a vast majority of the time, and when we did have the ball we didn't have players to drop back and carry it forward beating their press. Literally only Busquets did this and he gassed out and became way less effective in the 2nd half.

We won more tackles and interceptions than them, but because we didn't have a system to beat their press we couldn't counteract it and play the game we wanted to. Running more and winning more duels really wouldn't have saved us.

When Arthur came on we were incredibly demoralized and disorganized, but his influence made it so that we could get forward and shift it to putting them on the back foot. When we did that their "numeric" superiority was negated and whenever they won the ball we'd have an easier time of recovering it and continuing our momentum.

I'm not downplaying the importance of having athleticism/running/pressure, but that is not the KEY factor that we lacked which led to us being overwhelmed. It is that we couldn't beat their press because neither Rakitic nor Vidal made ANY effort to drop back, pick the ball up, turn and negate their pressure. That is mostly because they are nowhere near comfortable enough on the ball to do so. We couldn't build out of the back, and we couldn't transition the game to where we wanted it to be.

If we had done that, it would make life SO much easier for our midfielders and defenders.

-It'd be easier to win duels because we'd be on the front foot
-They wouldn't be able to simply overwhelm us by charging at us with greater numbers because their players would be farther back
-They'd get more tired/exhausted while we would save much more energy
-Our structure/organization would play more to our advantage and they would lose their offensive shape

Arthur and FDJ are no defensive slouches anyhow and FDJ is proving to be elite in this regard and shows incredible stamina.

You counteract pressure by beating the press, and that allows you to move the game into their territory. Once you're there, your own pressure is what allows you to keep it there and keep them playing reactively. It's not a matter of pressure vs pressure and who wins more duels. It's pressure vs press resistance and then vice versa on the other end. That's why I'm saying you guys need to reframe how you think about it, and that's why Arthur is so invaluable and his supposed workrate/stamina issues aren't as big as they're made out to be.

Sad thing is that most people here don't understand the basics of possession game and the basics of progressing the ball. It is very evident.

There are two ways to beat a press and move the ball in the areas you want to play.

1) Pass and move with good close control. If you have good close control, you can resist pressing. If you don't you turn the ball. It's that simple. Good close control means controlling the ball with 1-2 moves. Good close control + positional awareness allow a player to be lucid in moments of pressure that would make lesser midfielders to panic.

Guys like Rakitic and Vidal need 2-3 touches to even position themselves for a follow-up. By the time they make those extra touches, the pass channel is already done. All they can do by that time, is add even more pressure on a teammate, who makes the mistake instead of them.

Alba's mistake was for the first goal. The 2nd goal was caused by Rakitic.

2) There is another classical way that we don't use, because we don't have a strong target man. Long ball. When you play a long ball to a Llorente/Kane type (watch how Tottenham used that brilliantly vs Ajax, probably the move that won them the game), the defense has time to push up. This is how Tottenham moved the game in Ajax own danger zones in the 2nd half.

We never did anything to allow our defense any time to breath and position better. We were always playing with pressure mounting near our 16m box, because the midfield didn't have enough quality on the ball and we also didn't have anyone to claim long balls in our attack.

For that and many others, Valverde should either resign and get the sack. Man is an extremely limited manager. Without kidding, some members here understand the game better than Valverde.

 

[johantenenbaum]

Sad thing is that most people here don't understand the basics of possession game and the basics of progressing the ball. It is very evident.

There are two ways to beat a press and move the ball in the areas you want to play.

1) Pass and move with good close control. If you have good close control, you can resist pressing. If you don't you turn the ball. It's that simple. Good close control means controlling the ball with 1-2 moves. Good close control + positional awareness allow a player to be lucid in moments of pressure that would make lesser midfielders to panic.

Guys like Rakitic and Vidal need 2-3 touches to even position themselves for a follow-up. By the time they make those extra touches, the pass channel is already done. All they can do by that time, is add even more pressure on a teammate, who makes the mistake instead of them.

Alba's mistake was for the first goal. The 2nd goal was caused by Rakitic.

2) There is another classical way that we don't use, because we don't have a strong target man. Long ball. When you play a long ball to a Llorente/Kane type (watch how Tottenham used that brilliantly vs Ajax, probably the move that won them the game), the defense has time to push up.

We never did anything to allow our defense any time to breath and position better. We were always playing with pressure mounting near our 16m box, because the midfield didn't have enough quality on the ball and we also didn't have anyone to claim long balls in our attack.

For that and many others, Valverde should either resign and get the sack. Man is an extremely limited manager. Without kidding, some members here understand the game better than Valverde.

100% with you. both of you. Look at the first game at Camp Nou. We started with a flat 442 and first 15 minutes they swarmed us right and left. We couldn't go out of defense. Leo had to drop back even more. Our only option was to send the ball to Coutinho and make him suffer against fast right back and a defender. How is this a world class team's gameplay? After 15 or so minutes Busquets started to drop back into between Pique and Lenglet and that was when we hold the ball enough to come out of defense. Rakitic was nowhere to be seen, Busquets only option was to play the ball to his right side, to Roberto and Vidal. We cut their pressing blocks and Vidal sent a diagonal ball to left wing and we scored our first one. Valverde thought his system is working but the key factor was Busquets dropping back to connect our blocks. That was how we opened the game up, that was how we scored and made Liverpool frustrated. Valverde thought his 442 flat was the key. What a joke. He didn't even sub in Arthur that game. Cuz mistakenly his system was working (I believe this sentence sums up his Barcelona career.). Do you know why? Because of Leo.

Remember at the beginning of this season we played with rakitic-vidal midfield and we played awful? First 2 months we were struggling even to attack! After that period, Valverde started to use Arthur in his starting 11. That was the solution. That was the missing the key. Not strength, not muscle, not defending in the midfield. Holding the ball, possessing the ball. And against Liverpool Valverde thought Rakitic-Vidal would be sufficient. That was at Camp nou, thanks to Vidal's great performance while Rakitic was nowhere to be seen. We perform better at Camp Nou always. Away games, where we struggle. And Valverde thought it is again okay to start with Rakitic-Vidal and again with flat 442. He didn't even use Arthur in the first leg. He only used Arthur's possession style in the last 15 minutes at Anfield. He thought he would save the team. "Valverde thought Arthur was the savior." Well, Arthur granted us to possess the ball but it was too late already.

I don't know what to say anymore. Arthur is a good player, sure he has stamina problem but we can overcome that. Also under a better coach he could become way better. Most of our players could. Serious question: Which players has improved under Valverde? Klopp beaten us with Origi and Shakiri. Klopp made Firmino a world class player. Salah, Mane etc. Pep made Bernardo Silva and Raheem Sterling world class players. What did Valverde do? Players are happy with Valverde cuz he doesn't challenge them. They know they have a spot on the team. Board should sack Valverde and bring a better coach. Atleast a decent one. Then we can discuss player performances.

 

[Potroh]

Man is an extremely limited manager. Without kidding, some members here understand the game better than Valverde.

Most definitely so...

 

[aqua2nd]

The only reason why Arthur is fans' favourite is because he has the profile that fits in well with Barça system. But I don't think his ceiling is high enough to be a long-term starter assuming that Barça remains to be a contender for the CL with or without Messi. When we manage to have more competitive midfield squad, his input won't be that impressive unless he significantly improves his game.

Stop the "ceiling" bullshit please, that word and the "generational talent" bullshit are going too far now. You may have some clue to predict if a player has potential to become next Messi or Ronaldo at very young age but many player gradually improve and eventually become world class at 25~26 years old. At their peak they can can be comparable with any top player in the world except freaks of nature like Messi, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho... I bet no one expected Xavi, Iniesta, Pirlo to become generational talents when they just started their carriers, world class maybe but not tops of the generation
Do you know how many young player with "world beater celling" failed to adapt to Barca and how many of them actually reached that "celling" people love to stick to their names?
Arthur is still very young, how do you know he won't be able to develop his game? At least he proved that he can adapt and play well in our system in his first year in Europe, that gives him more of my expectation than the next unpredictable "100 millions" player

 

[Potroh]

Serious question: Which players has improved under Valverde?

Alba.
Specially that Digne was sold, and specially that the "system" has changed to a pseudo-4-4-2.

 

[tacticvarium]

Stop the "ceiling" bullshit please, that word and the "generational talent" bullshit are going too far now. You may have some clue to predict if a player has potential to become next Messi or Ronaldo at very young age but many player gradually improve and eventually become world class at 25~26 years old. At their peak they can can be comparable with any top player in the world except freaks of nature like Messi, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho... I bet no one expected Xavi, Iniesta, Pirlo to become generational talents when they just started their carriers, world class maybe but not tops of the generation
Do you know how many young player with "world beater celling" failed to adapt to Barca and how many of them actually reached that "celling" people love to stick to their names?
Arthur is still very young, how do you know he won't be able to develop his game? At least he proved that he can adapt and play well in our system in his first year in Europe, that gives him more of my expectation than the next unpredictable "100 millions" player

I stopped reading your post as soon as I read Messi or Ronaldo part

 

[johantenenbaum]

Alba.
Specially that Digne was sold, and specially that the "system" has changed to a pseudo-4-4-2.

Okay why Alba improved or how?

Answer: Leo started to roam to the left side. Leo was good with Dani Alves as well. Their communication was phenomenal. Last 2-3 years Leo started to roam to the left side more to find a good connection other than Suarez which isn't a very reliable connection. I don't think it was by pseudo 442. Valverde's pseudo 442 has 2 wing backs and Busquets as a half defender. Which kills the midfield's efficiency since we couldn't recover the ball in the mid since Busi wasn't there to cover the midfield. That's another topic. About Alba tho... Leo doesn't use Sergi Roberto or Semedo as often as Alba because Coutinho usually cuts inside to open the left wing more by dragging opponents right back. On right side, he can't use Sergi or Semedo since they will face with a crowded defense there and their passing isn't as good as Alba. Also Roberto contributes to midfield.

Leo dribbling towards left enabled Alba. That isn't Valverde to improve Alba's game style or performance. He is already one of the best left backs out there. Valverde just made sure he has no competition there and forced him to play every single game. This also exhausts players. Where is the improvement?

 

[aqua2nd]

I stopped reading your post as soon as I read Messi or Ronaldo part

Oh or you don't have any argument for the discussion and could only try to trigger me by childish "stopped reading your post"?
Certainly you don't understand simple concept likes "has potential" so that's understandable

 

[Potroh]

That isn't Valverde to improve Alba's game style or performance. He is already one of the best left backs out there. Valverde just made sure he has no competition there and forced him to play every single game. This also exhausts players. Where is the improvement?

I agree with your "answer".
The improvement is the routine and precision Alba can accomplish those runs which also stands for his final back-balls.
He has improved on that no doubt, and of course it is NOT Valverde's merit, it just comes from the situation where Alba is able to do those runs.

Your original question was: "Which players has improved under Valverde?". Alba has improved his attacking skills, thus he improved, but not due to Valverde.
So I simply tried to answer your original question.

Otherwise there is Ter Stegen, who also improved a lot in the last two years, but once again it has nothing to do with EV.

 

[abiabi]

Arthur not playing is a terrible decision. We needed to play for a goal, the way we set up with 4 defensive midfielders is inviting pressure and asking Messi to be a hero.

We have been catastrophic away in Europe (In big games), we lose 3-0, 4-0. Because we are built around 2 guys that need the team to be all together attacking with numeric superirority. We don't have a 6'4 Llorente to escape pressure. But we are defending deep, creating 2 separate blocks, which is exactly what you shouldn't do in these games. We are defending deep but without a counter attacking athletic outlet, and asking too much of Messi. Arthur is the only answer to our lack of counter attacks, because he would enable us to breathe much more from the pressure. Rather than just putting another defensive player to invite more pressure. Our result in Real Madrid was fake, I said it. We defended deep 'succesfully' because they missed 40 goals. We cannot defend deep again in this shape, our players aren't built for defending like Eibar or Burnley

 

[BBZ8800]

One more bad thing about our CL defeat is that now people will be able to post any theories and we won't be able to test it.

For the next 12 Months we will read how Arthur could have saved us.
Maybe it is true, maybe it isn't.
We can't test it.

We will get the answer only in March and April of 2020' when we will play new Cl matches.

Until then, majority of our players will look like a World class in La Liga matches, in Cdr matches against Celta and Espanyol and in a Cl meaningless semi friendly group stage matches againt Roma, Psv and a champion of Estonia.

My point is: La Liga is really weak lately.
Smaller teams are horrible, Real and Atletico are weaker than before plus they lost (or they will lose) Cr7 and Griezmann.
Sevilla is way weaker than 5 years ago when they were winning in Europe.
Cdr is a Mickey Mouse trophy.
Cl group stage is also usually played with 70% of intensity.

So, unless if a player plays horribly against smaller teams, we won't know how actually good he is.

Dembele is injured all the time.
He hasn't played too much on a World cup.
He hasn't played CL knockout matches in the last two seasons.
We have no idea whether in a CL he will be a world class guy or a guy from the last 5 minutes against Liverpool where he screwed 3 actions in 5 minutes.

Arthur hasn't played on a World cup, and played 3 KO matches this season.
Against Man U, by neutral ratings, he was our worst midfielder.

My point: La liga is turning into a slow motion, lower intensity, lower pressure, lower quality league.
Busi looks good in La liga, yet in Europe he is eaten alive.
Our players are getting used to that slow tempo of La Liga, Cdr and CL group stage semi-friendly matches.
And we aren't tested at all in against high intensity sudden death matches, unlike EPL teams.

Plus, we can hope that Dembele or Arthur would have played awesome against Liverpool, but in this moment, you guys don't have any proofs for that since they never played in similar matches.

So, as said, we won't know the answer till the next March.
Then it will be either:
1) we won, these guys are a true material
2) or, oh... we lost 4:0 again even with them on a field. Let's find a new scapegoat.

 

[Tekkers]

One more bad thing about our CL defeat is that now people will be able to post any theories and we won't be able to test it.

For the next 12 Months we will read how Arthur could have saved us.
Maybe it is true, maybe it isn't.
We can't test it.

We will get the answer only in March and April of 2020' when we will play new Cl matches.

Until then, majority of our players will look like a World class in La Liga matches, in Cdr matches against Celta and Espanyol and in a Cl meaningless semi friendly group stage matches againt Roma, Psv and a champion of Estonia.

My point is: La Liga is really weak lately.
Smaller teams are horrible, Real and Atletico are weaker than before plus they lost (or they will lose) Cr7 and Griezmann.
Sevilla is way weaker than 5 years ago when they were winning in Europe.
Cdr is a Mickey Mouse trophy.
Cl group stage is also usually played with 70% of intensity.

So, unless if a player plays horribly against smaller teams, we won't know how actually good he is.

Dembele is injured all the time.
He hasn't played too much on a World cup.
He hasn't played CL knockout matches in the last two seasons.
We have no idea whether in a CL he will be a world class guy or a guy from the last 5 minutes against Liverpool where he screwed 3 actions in 5 minutes.

Arthur hasn't played on a World cup, and played 3 KO matches this season.
Against Man U, by neutral ratings, he was our worst midfielder.

My point: La liga is turning into a slow motion, lower intensity, lower pressure, lower quality league.
Busi looks good in La liga, yet in Europe he is eaten alive.
Our players are getting used to that slow tempo of La Liga, Cdr and CL group stage semi-friendly matches.
And we aren't tested at all in against high intensity sudden death matches, unlike EPL teams.

Plus, we can hope that Dembele or Arthur would have played awesome against Liverpool, but in this moment, you guys don't have any proofs for that since they never played in similar matches.

So, as said, we won't know the answer till the next March.
Then it will be either:
1) we won, these guys are a true material
2) or, oh... we lost 4:0 again even with them on a field. Let's find a new scapegoat.

one thing we know is that rakitic can no long player for us. the last few ucl campaigns highlighted this, but this last game stamped it. TERRIBLE performance and he had a full 90 mins to show his displays unlike those other two youngsters